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Fuzzy
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03 Jan 2010, 8:34 am

PunkyKat wrote:
People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, abortion is murder.


The legal concept of murder pre-dates human rights by thousands of years. The original reason for punitive measures against killing people is because it denies society a productive member.

I certainly cant deny that a foetus has productive potential, but there is a statistical difference between that and a skilled adult whose society already depends on him and who has emotional bonds with other members of society.

This is still true today. Doctors will save a mother over her unborn child.

Summing up, a doctor who does that will not be charged with murder, which is solely a legal concept. Even though he killed a baby. Catch-22, right?

Of course. But thats not what we are talking about is it? We are talking about the killing of the foetus that inconveniences the mother. No danger to her before hand.

But she'll never get charged with murder in this case either. Do you know why? Because no one can ever determine motive. And no elected judge will ever will take actions that revoke any human rights from 50% of the population. He would have to be insane. Another catch-22. Societies rights are embodied by the mother, and the majority wins over a baby.

And if you wont charge a wilful mother, how can you charge the doctor without being a hypocrite?


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anna-banana
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03 Jan 2010, 9:42 am

PunkyKat wrote:

People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, abortion is murder.


so is killing animals.


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Sand
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03 Jan 2010, 9:48 am

anna-banana wrote:
PunkyKat wrote:

People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, abortion is murder.


so is killing animals.


I don't eat meat but it sounds like you're starting campaign against omelets.



ruveyn
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03 Jan 2010, 11:01 am

Sand wrote:

I don't eat meat but it sounds like you're starting campaign against omelets.


Then you have no steak in the argument and you have no beef with the conclusions. No matter how you slice it, you have no chops for this issue.

ruveyn



Sand
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03 Jan 2010, 11:16 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

I don't eat meat but it sounds like you're starting campaign against omelets.


Then you have no steak in the argument and you have no beef with the conclusions. No matter how you slice it, you have no chops for this issue.

ruveyn


C'mon. It's time you cut the baloney.



anna-banana
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03 Jan 2010, 1:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

I don't eat meat but it sounds like you're starting campaign against omelets.


Then you have no steak in the argument and you have no beef with the conclusions. No matter how you slice it, you have no chops for this issue.

ruveyn


:lol:


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DW_a_mom
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03 Jan 2010, 1:51 pm

Sand wrote:
Magnus wrote:
Argument: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

It's a huge responsibility, having children. Who would take care of all these unwanted children? I wouldn't want to be born into that sort of environment.


And the interesting thing about these anti-abortionists is the care little for the children after they're born. They vote against day care funds, funds for education (which requires taxes) and all those other essentials the help a child grow up healthy and aware and able to earn a decent living.


Which would be a large reason why I turned so hard against the so-called pro-life movement. The original pro-life papers from Pope John Paul II took a wholistic view, truly conception to grave, talking about care at each life step. Yet the movement is politicized and focused soley on one point, without considering how ignoring the other points might actually increase the need and desire for abortions. As much as I would love to see all abortions end, I cannot swallow the attitudes I've seen among the pro-life set. Making it illegal is not the right answer.

You know what I found most interesting? When Pope John Paul II passed away I asked a group of people on a debate forum I frequented at the time if they would be willing to give up certain political positions to live in the world he envisioned, with the whole of it. Every pro-choice person said yes, they would give that up if the other things he advocated were a reality. It was the pro-life debators who said no, largely because, they claimed, "it's impossible."


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08 Jan 2010, 2:09 pm

I've been Pro-life my entire life. I feel that every child deserves a chance at life, no matter what. If the parents don't want the child, than there's always the option of adopting the child out. Every child is a wanted child.


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08 Jan 2010, 2:16 pm

For me it depends on the reason the abortion is happening. If it's happening because of prenatal testing, for example, I'm utterly against it. However, if there's a special reason, like the mother's been raped, I think the abortion should be allowed.



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08 Jan 2010, 3:02 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
I've been Pro-life my entire life. I feel that every child deserves a chance at life, no matter what. If the parents don't want the child, than there's always the option of adopting the child out. Every child is a wanted child.


that's really f****n' naiive.
http://photolisting.adoption.com/



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09 Jan 2010, 1:13 am

Ok well first off the omlet crisis...is really funny

secondly, I had an abortion, not because I wanted to. I really wanted to keep the child, but the situation that I was in would have made the child wish she was dead anyway.

I was in an abusive relationship. I got pregnant, and my boyfriend told me that if I left him and took the baby (like I would leave a child with HIM???) after the baby was born, then he would kill me. I hated being put in this situation, but I had an abortion 300 miles away and told him that I had a miscarrage. I was so upset that I had to do this that I finally left him for good. It was hard to do, but I did it. So even though I know that in some people's eyes this was murder for self preservation...I see it as an act of humanity. I loved this child. I loved her enough that I would never let her be born with such a monster for a father. I know that I would not be able to get her away from him without major harm done beforehand. I seen a court give visitation rights to a child molester despite major evidence proving that he was. The kid would be emotionally maimed (and probably dead) before I could get sole custody of her.

This experience has changed my life...I now take who I date very seriously as to not get in a situation like that again.

But as far as my religious views on the issue...I believe in reincarnation...so she was born to another family. I hope I get to see her some day.



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09 Jan 2010, 10:32 am

CockneyRebel wrote:
I've been Pro-life my entire life. I feel that every child deserves a chance at life, no matter what. If the parents don't want the child, than there's always the option of adopting the child out. Every child is a wanted child.


A fetus in the early stages of development is NOT a child. What do you call something that does not have a functioning cerebral cortex? Is it a human? Is it a child?

When the fetus is late in the third trimester you may have the glimmering of an argument, but not any time in the first trimester.

Just keep in mind: acorns are NOT oak trees.

ruveyn



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09 Jan 2010, 1:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I've been Pro-life my entire life. I feel that every child deserves a chance at life, no matter what. If the parents don't want the child, than there's always the option of adopting the child out. Every child is a wanted child.


A fetus in the early stages of development is NOT a child. What do you call something that does not have a functioning cerebral cortex? Is it a human? Is it a child?

When the fetus is late in the third trimester you may have the glimmering of an argument, but not any time in the first trimester.

Just keep in mind: acorns are NOT oak trees.

ruveyn


In your opinion. Obviously, CockneyRebel sees it differently.

To be clear, I respect your opinion, and knowing that reasonable people hold it is one of the reasons I am legally pro-choice. But you should also respect the opposing opinion and beliefs. Feel free to explain that you don't see it that way, of course. Just understand that it is a valid position and belief, and it would be nice to phrase your arguments showing respect for that.

As far as trying to assign a timeline to it, my opinion is that once the fetus is capable of surviving outside of the womb, whether or not extensive measuers are required, the ability to argue it isn't a life fails. Period. I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. To that point, yes. I get it - potential human life, not current human life. After that point - it's a life.


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09 Jan 2010, 1:23 pm

jojobean wrote:
Ok well first off the omlet crisis...is really funny

secondly, I had an abortion, not because I wanted to. I really wanted to keep the child, but the situation that I was in would have made the child wish she was dead anyway.

I was in an abusive relationship. I got pregnant, and my boyfriend told me that if I left him and took the baby (like I would leave a child with HIM???) after the baby was born, then he would kill me. I hated being put in this situation, but I had an abortion 300 miles away and told him that I had a miscarrage. I was so upset that I had to do this that I finally left him for good. It was hard to do, but I did it. So even though I know that in some people's eyes this was murder for self preservation...I see it as an act of humanity. I loved this child. I loved her enough that I would never let her be born with such a monster for a father. I know that I would not be able to get her away from him without major harm done beforehand. I seen a court give visitation rights to a child molester despite major evidence proving that he was. The kid would be emotionally maimed (and probably dead) before I could get sole custody of her.

This experience has changed my life...I now take who I date very seriously as to not get in a situation like that again.

But as far as my religious views on the issue...I believe in reincarnation...so she was born to another family. I hope I get to see her some day.


That you for sharing what was obviously a very painful experience. Its shows so clearly how real life doesn't fit neatly into the boxes used in any of the common political debate points. It is all so gray, so personal, and so difficult. I really wish the pro-life movement would understand that, and change their tactics with respect for it. I would love to see real progress on reducing the occurance of abortions while also improving the real choices available to women in difficult situations. That would be a movement I could get on board with. But, I guess, that is too complicated for most people.


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09 Jan 2010, 1:35 pm

This experience taught me that nothing is clear cut black or white...and to never judge because you dont know where a person has been and has been through.



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09 Jan 2010, 1:54 pm

Ruveyn >< That last bit, although the metaphor is correct, is a bit erroneous in that you're comparing plants with fleshy beings. <.< There's kind of a lot of differences between the reproductive stages of the two organisms (if they can even be called that, at this point)...