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Janissy
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15 Jan 2010, 7:37 am

I wish I hadn't clicked on this thread and seen that cartoon but I did and now I can't un-see it. That cartoon is my worst nightmare. My daughter takes things very literally and this cartoon is why I watch my words very carefully when I talk about death to her. Her grandparents and many others talk about heaven to her all the time and they make it sound like a really great place to go. She is so literal that I am often in fear of this very thing happening. :cry: :cry: :cry:



Sand
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15 Jan 2010, 7:40 am

Janissy wrote:
I wish I hadn't clicked on this thread and seen that cartoon but I did and now I can't un-see it. That cartoon is my worst nightmare. My daughter takes things very literally and this cartoon is why I watch my words very carefully when I talk about death to her. Her grandparents and many others talk about heaven to her all the time and they make it sound like a really great place to go. She is so literal that I am often in fear of this very thing happening. :cry: :cry: :cry:


I don't know if you're serious but the obvious solution is to tell her about original sin so she can expect to land in Hell. Or at least the stinky parts of New Jersey.



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15 Jan 2010, 11:35 am

Sand wrote:
...Hell. Or at least the stinky parts of New Jersey.

Same thing. ;)


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15 Jan 2010, 12:00 pm

wow I'm happy I'm jewish....hell...doesn't really exist for us.
G-d never explained these things to man for the reason this thread is so crazy.
It's to much for the human mind to understand. That's what I think. You can't presume to understand the reasoning of G-d.



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15 Jan 2010, 12:57 pm

Janissy wrote:
I wish I hadn't clicked on this thread and seen that cartoon but I did and now I can't un-see it. That cartoon is my worst nightmare. My daughter takes things very literally and this cartoon is why I watch my words very carefully when I talk about death to her. Her grandparents and many others talk about heaven to her all the time and they make it sound like a really great place to go. She is so literal that I am often in fear of this very thing happening. :cry: :cry: :cry:


I am sorry for your very difficult situation. Are the grandparents at least amenable to reason in regards to conversational subjects?


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Janissy
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15 Jan 2010, 1:28 pm

Fuzzy wrote:
Janissy wrote:
I wish I hadn't clicked on this thread and seen that cartoon but I did and now I can't un-see it. That cartoon is my worst nightmare. My daughter takes things very literally and this cartoon is why I watch my words very carefully when I talk about death to her. Her grandparents and many others talk about heaven to her all the time and they make it sound like a really great place to go. She is so literal that I am often in fear of this very thing happening. :cry: :cry: :cry:


I am sorry for your very difficult situation. Are the grandparents at least amenable to reason in regards to conversational subjects?


I have talked to them about it and they do have some understanding of autism so they have toned it down some. But they are also very religious and even when they are trying to watch what they say these things just leap out of their mouths from >60 years of habit. My daughter is not Aspergers so she's not quite as intellectual as people on this board so I really have to watch it. I try to modify all the heaven talk with a more scientific view of just winking out of existence. Since she's a black and white thinker (of course, and probably more than people with Asperger's) she wants to know who is telling the truth: me or her grandparents. It is a very odd line to walk because I don't want to distance her from her grandparents who are well-meaning and love her very much. So I just confuse her by trying to make it like we are both right-ish in our own way. This makes no sense to her but at least it hopefully keeps her from getting too sucked in to the "wonderful heaven" talk.



sartresue
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15 Jan 2010, 2:10 pm

Heaven is not a haven topic

I used to think about the concept of heaven a lot when I was young after being told that my relatives who had died went there after death. I could not imagine going, as I could not imagine my own death. I still cannot.

Since I cannot be sure of what happens after my life has ended, I have decided not to worry about it, only that my loved ones will be sad (I hope) like the cartoon suggests. Like Jannisy, I was a bit disturbed, though for a different reason: Death is painful for those left behind, especially if it is a suicide, or the death of a child, or a horrible accident. :(


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ThatRedHairedGrrl
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15 Jan 2010, 3:12 pm

To be honest, I think people who have suicidal thoughts are looking for oblivion, not any kind of continued existence, heavenly or not. Whatever they might, in a normal state of mind, believe about an afterlife isn't likely to apply - they just want out.

Suicide became a 'sin', BTW, when the Jewish authorities noticed how many early Christians were getting a little too eager to be martyred. The church itself condemned it later on because too many martyrs meant the Church didn't grow quickly enough. Added bonus: under canon law, the Church got all a suicide's property, leaving many already devastated families penniless. Nice. I think of any religious person who ever encountered suicide, Chad Varah (google him) had the right attitude.

I believe in an afterlife, but I don't pretend to know how it might work; not something any of us can understand in our current state, probably. I tend toward the idea of some form of continuing energy, which might or might not retain what we could call a personality. I think the conventional ideas are rather too earthly: anyone who agrees with us gets the goodies, anyone who doesn't suffers forever...naah. People who think that way deserve for the afterlife to be nothing like what they expected.

(On the subject of being happy in heaven while loved ones suffer in hell - I've read explanations that claim a) God will 'compassionately' wipe out all memory of the damned from the blessed so as not to trouble their bliss; and b) it doesn't matter because the damned themselves are no longer human, therefore not worthy of compassion anyway. Both seem to me to be treading on very dangerous ground, not least as to how people who believe these things have treated the 'unsaved' in this world. Just to be the kind of person who'd believe either of those right now, I'd have to become someone I wouldn't recognize.)

Anyway, it'll be interesting to find out. And if there isn't an afterlife, well, I won't be around to know, will I? :wink:


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15 Jan 2010, 8:38 pm

I'd just like to say that for beings supposedly created in the image of an omnipotent entity our senses are exceptionally lacking, at least according to the followers of said entity.



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16 Jan 2010, 11:08 am

Janissy wrote:
So I just confuse her by trying to make it like we are both right-ish in our own way. This makes no sense to her but at least it hopefully keeps her from getting too sucked in to the "wonderful heaven" talk.

You could just do for her what my dad did for me and tell her that people believe different things, that believing isn't the same thing as knowing, and that she shouldn't let anyone tell her what to believe.


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Fuzzy
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16 Jan 2010, 11:31 am

Its fairly obvious that the meme "Heaven is great, but people that attempt to go there early never arrive" came from just such a situation. Suicide as a short cut to the pearly gates has got to be a deadly sin so as to attempt to fix the exodus cause by the first lie.

But it just makes people even more miserable.

In my friends case, especially his mom must be torn. Shes got one son in "heaven" as a result of "gods will" and other is roasting his biscuit in the bowels of hell for circumventing the "lord's will".

She'll never see both her sons again if there is any truth to religion. Not on earth, not in an afterlife.

Maybe god could make her forget the very existence of the punished one? Some sort of "blind me lord, so I forget my love".

Maybe I could console her by saying "dont worry, pray and be a good servant and god will make you forget your son ever existed."

Do you think that would comfort her? Because that is the truth of the matter, at least according to the official party line.


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Vince
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16 Jan 2010, 11:40 am

Fuzzy wrote:
Maybe I could console her by saying "dont worry, pray and be a good servant and god will make you forget your son ever existed."

I obviously don't know how religious people think, but that sounds like it would be a horrible thing to say. I'm not sure there is a right thing to say. There is no comfort, it seems. Not within the boundaries of the religion, anyway.


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Fuzzy
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16 Jan 2010, 1:34 pm

Vince wrote:
Fuzzy wrote:
Maybe I could console her by saying "dont worry, pray and be a good servant and god will make you forget your son ever existed."

I obviously don't know how religious people think, but that sounds like it would be a horrible thing to say. I'm not sure there is a right thing to say. There is no comfort, it seems. Not within the boundaries of the religion, anyway.


No. And of course I would never say it. As you suggested, there is little kindness that can be be a comfort. But the stick and the carrot of religion are a vicious thing, even if religion is valid.


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16 Jan 2010, 3:07 pm

It hurts people when you try to take their religion away, especially in the process of eradicating beliefs, it destroys the infrastructure of humanity.

We need to be like anthropologists if we refuse to be like the ape mentality of grouping beliefs for personal gain. We need to be humble and respectful and all those good things that the religions were meant to inspire.


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16 Jan 2010, 4:27 pm

Magnus wrote:
We need to be humble and respectful and all those good things that the religions were meant to inspire.


Why do we need to be respectful of religion? Respectful of people; yes. But my beef is that religion is not respectful of people, so it gets no respect in turn.


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16 Jan 2010, 4:51 pm

That is not true. Religion has been used by people for self-serving interests, but I haven't studied any religion that is negative. It's the most beautiful literature that describes profound, spiritual experiences. Many things get taken out of context and get perverted, but overall, it's been used for good more than bad.


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