Nationalism can be good when it is not enforced

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iamnotaparakeet
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20 Jan 2010, 5:36 am

According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, nationalism is "loyalty and devotion to a nation. [...]", which is not necessarily a horrible thing. Certainly there are well known examples of tyrants and dictators who forced nationalism, such as Hitler and Stalin in modern times. However, is it proper to conclude that because there have been abuses to nationalism that nationalism itself is bad? I think it is improper to conclude such based on association.

Is loyalty and devotion to ones country good to have just because you are born in that particular country? No, since you can't choose where you are born. In the womb, you basically can't make any decisions about any aspects of your life, where you are born is an aspect of your life so you can't decide where you are born. So, being loyal to ones country on the basis of it being your place of birth is improper. But are there other more valid reasons to have loyalty to ones place of birth? I think there are.

In America there is a particular freedom of speech which is often lacking in other countries, such as North Korea. Here is a basic test to see if you have freedom of speech in your country: go out into public and whine about how awful your country is. If you are allowed to speak without being arrested and possibly shot, you just might live in a country that allows freedom of speech. Does having freedom of speech, even if it has some limitations, make one nation better than a nation which actively censors and suppresses freedom of speech? Though it does depend on how much people value the ability to have a voice for themselves versus how much they want undesirable voices to be silenced, I think it would not be too much of a stretch to assert that any nation which allows its populace to have a voice is better than those that do not.

What about nations in which nationalism is enforced? Is having loyalty and devotion to such a country honorable, or much less, even remotely logical? I think that, though the rhetorically obvious answer is "no", it also depends on whether loyalty and devotion can truly be enforced. Loyalty can be fidelity and dependability to someone or something, and to that extent it can be enforced. But to the extent that loyalty is a choice based on the perception of probity, this cannot be enforced. Demanding loyalty and threatening consequences is an effective measure to actually remove the latter type of loyalty, even if the former type is present in appearance. So is having loyalty to a nation which enforces nationalism honorable? No, but it is wise, if one values their life, to provide such an appearance if one is unfortunate to live in such a nation. Is it logically possible to have the form of loyalty which is based on respect in such a country? I would say that it would depend upon if they have personally experienced what argumentum ad baculum feels like. If their government has provided an appeal to force to them directly, then I would say that it is impossible to have this form of loyalty. If they have not felt what it is liked to be threatened, then they may still live under the enchanted illusion of their government's propaganda.

But what about freedom of religion? Freedom of religion, allows people to express their beliefs and values in public. Sometimes this causes problems, such as when someone mixes "do not murder" with the enlightenment philosophy of "the greater good", and then an abortion clinic is exploded. And sometimes there are events like the bus bombings frequently done in Israel, or plane hijackings, or other acts of Qur'an influenced terrorism. But do these actions merit suppression of religion? No. And not just because there are "peaceful ones" or other such stuff, but because these actions are actually criminal actions and not just based on ones ideology. To punish all because of the few is what is called "going overboard". More to the point, it removes freedom from people.

What about freedom in general? Is freedom something to be valued? Freedom is something that is valued by all people even if it is only subconsciously. Nobody that I know likes to be silenced. Nobody I know likes to be told, "don't do this". Certainly there may be some people that I don't know who are masochistic enough to enjoy the feeling that being silenced often provides, but I do not know them personally. Is this an argument from ignorance? It can be considered such, but in terms of statistical sampling, assuming I have met, say, 10 random people and 1 of them enjoys to be told "Shut up or else!", then statistically (with a wide margin of error for such a small sample) approximately 1 out of 10 people may have such a form of emotional masochism. However, out of the thousands of people I've met, nobody seems to enjoy being silenced, or being told "don't do this", or having privileges taken away. So freedom is something that I perceive to be valued by everyone inherently.

But aside from my perception, is freedom something to be valued? According to Eleanor Roosevelt, "Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry is own weight, this is a frightening prospect." If it is true that freedom is inseparable from responsibility, then if freedom is removed then so is responsibility. If that is valid, then in order to have no responsibility for ones actions, one must have no freedom. So, there is a possibility of people who would prefer to have no responsibilities and perhaps even value irresponsibility higher than freedom. At least prior to when the deed is done and the contract signed. There could even be enjoyment of lack of freedom depending on what the individual values. But does the possibility of irresponsibility being valued higher than freedom mean that freedom is not to be valued? No, it just means that some people might be willing to trade one item for another based on which is more valuable to them. I think that freedom is still to be valued.

To return from the digression concerning the value of freedom, and returning to the main topic of nationalism, is it reasonable to have loyalty for one's own nation? It is not reasonable if the only reason is that you were born there. It is not emotionally possible if the loyalty is forced. But what about probity? If the nation you are a citizen of is worthy of respect, then is it reasonable to have respect for it? To give loyalty to a country based on its merits is, in my opinion, reasonable. It does depend on what each individual values as being worthy of respect, but I would say that any nation which allows its populace to have more freedom than others is better in that respect than the others which do not grant such freedom. Having loyalty for that type of country is not unreasonable. In consideration of this, nationalism itself is not bad. Nationalism can even be good in a nation where people have freedom, id est, where it is not enforced but, rather, earned.



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20 Jan 2010, 9:55 pm

Any system or lifestyle that is not enforced upon others who wish to opt out of it should always be allowed to take place.

I oppose socialism.
But lets say I live in a free market society and another community has their socialist system, anyone who would try to stop the socialists from living like they are living, is my enemy and I will be on the side of the socialists.
...Too bad socialists can't say the same for me and my people...



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20 Jan 2010, 11:59 pm

ASPER wrote:
Any system or lifestyle that is not enforced upon others who wish to opt out of it should always be allowed to take place.

I oppose socialism.
But lets say I live in a free market society and another community has their socialist system, anyone who would try to stop the socialists from living like they are living, is my enemy and I will be on the side of the socialists.
...Too bad socialists can't say the same for me and my people...

*facepalm*


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21 Jan 2010, 1:00 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
ASPER wrote:
Any system or lifestyle that is not enforced upon others who wish to opt out of it should always be allowed to take place.

I oppose socialism.
But lets say I live in a free market society and another community has their socialist system, anyone who would try to stop the socialists from living like they are living, is my enemy and I will be on the side of the socialists.
...Too bad socialists can't say the same for me and my people...

*facepalm*


*facepalm* Look at the case of Singapore! I am suffering under the worst combination of capitalism and socialism! China seemed like the 2nd worst...


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iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jan 2010, 2:55 am

Socialism? No, this is the topic of Nationalism, which Merriam Webster's dictionary defines as loyalty or devotion to ones country. This is not about an economic or political system of governance, but rather it is about whether or not it is reasonable to have loyalty to and/or respect for one's own country.

I know I wrote this to be a bit long, but it is my attempt at writing an expository paper. The above was my rough draft.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jan 2010, 2:59 am

The following is my completed paper,

Week 2 Expository Essay for English Composition, by the Non Psittacorian wrote:
NATIONALISM CAN BE GOOD IF NOT ENFORCED




Nationalism can be good if not enforced
Ben Michael Fournier
Rasmussen College





Author Note:
This is being submitted for the Week 2 Expository Essay regarding the Pros and Cons of Nationalism. As expounded on, I consider it not necessarily a bad attitude, though depending more upon why this attitude is held.

Nationalism can be good if not enforced. What is nationalism? According to Merriam-Webster's online dictionary, nationalism is "loyalty and devotion to a nation. [...]", (Retrieved January 20, 2010, from http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism) which is not necessarily a horrible thing. Certainly there are well known examples of tyrants and dictators who forced nationalism, such as Hitler (Retrieved January 20, 2010, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) and Stalin in modern times. However, is it proper to conclude that because there have been abuses to nationalism that nationalism itself is bad? I think it is improper to conclude such based on association.


Is loyalty and devotion to ones country good to have just because you are born in that particular country? No, since you can't choose where you are born. In the womb, you basically can't make any decisions about any aspects of your life, where you are born is an aspect of your life so you can't decide where you are born. So, being loyal to one's country on the basis of it being your place of birth is improper. But are there other more valid reasons to have loyalty to ones place of birth? I think there are.

In America there is a particular freedom of speech which is often lacking in other countries, such as North Korea. Here is a basic test to see if you have freedom of speech in your country: go out into public and whine about how awful your country is. If you are allowed to speak without being arrested and possibly shot, you just might live in a country that allows freedom of speech. Does having freedom of speech, even if it has some limitations, make one nation better than a nation which actively censors and suppresses freedom of speech? Though it does depend on how much people value the ability to have a voice for themselves versus how much they want undesirable voices to be silenced, I think it would not be too much of a stretch to assert that any nation which allows its populace to have a voice is better than those that do not.

What about nations in which nationalism is enforced? Is having loyalty and devotion to such a country honorable, or much less, even remotely logical? I think that, though the rhetorically obvious answer is "no", it also depends on whether loyalty and devotion can truly be enforced. Loyalty can be fidelity and dependability to someone or something, and to that extent it can be enforced. But to the extent that loyalty is a choice based on the perception of probity, this cannot be enforced. Demanding loyalty and threatening consequences is an effective measure to actually remove the latter type of loyalty, even if the former type is present in appearance. So is having loyalty to a nation which enforces nationalism honorable? No, but it is wise, if one values their life, to provide such an appearance if one is unfortunate to live in such a nation. Is it logically possible to have the form of loyalty which is based on respect in such a country? I would say that it would depend upon if they have personally experienced what argumentum ad baculum feels like. If their government has provided an appeal to force to them directly, then I would say that it is impossible to have this form of loyalty. If they have not felt what it is liked to be threatened, then they may still live under the enchanted illusion of their government's propaganda.

What about freedom in general? Is freedom something to be valued? Freedom is something that is valued by all people even if it is only subconsciously. Nobody that I know likes to be silenced or have privileges removed. Certainly there may be some people that I don't know who are masochistic enough to enjoy the feeling that being silenced often provides, but I do not know them personally. Is this an argument from ignorance? It can be considered such, but in terms of statistical sampling, assuming I have met, say, 10 random people and 1 of them enjoys to be told "Shut up or else!", then statistically (with a wide margin of error for such a small sample) approximately 1 out of 10 people may have such a form of emotional masochism. However, out of the thousands of people I've met, nobody seems to enjoy being silenced or having privileges taken away. So freedom is something that I perceive to be valued by everyone inherently.

But aside from my perception, is freedom something to be valued? According to Eleanor Roosevelt, "Freedom makes a huge requirement of every human being. With freedom comes responsibility. For the person who is unwilling to grow up, the person who does not want to carry is own weight, this is a frightening prospect." (Retrieved January 20, 2010, from http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 66988.html). If it is true that freedom is inseparable from responsibility, then if freedom is removed then so is responsibility. If that is valid, then in order to have no responsibility for ones actions, one must have no freedom. So, there is a possibility of people who would prefer to have no responsibilities and perhaps even value irresponsibility higher than freedom. At least prior to when the deed is done and the contract signed. There could even be enjoyment of lack of freedom depending on what the individual values. But does the possibility of irresponsibility being valued higher than freedom mean that freedom is not to be valued? No, it just means that some people might be willing to trade one item for another based on which is more valuable to them. I think that freedom is still to be valued.

To return from the digression concerning the value of freedom, and returning to the main topic of nationalism, is it reasonable to have loyalty for one's own nation? It is not reasonable if the only reason is that you were born there. It is not emotionally possible if the loyalty is forced. But what about probity? If the nation you are a citizen of is worthy of respect, then is it reasonable to have respect for it? To give loyalty to a country based on its merits is, in my opinion, reasonable. It does depend on what each individual values as being worthy of respect, but I would say that any nation which allows its populace to have more freedom than others is better in that respect than the others which do not grant such freedom. Having loyalty for that type of country is not unreasonable. In consideration of this, nationalism itself is not bad. Nationalism can even be good in a nation where people have freedom, id est, where it is not enforced but, rather, earned.








References


Nationalism. (2010). In Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary. Retrieved January 20, 2010, from http://www.merriam- webster.com/dictionary/nationalism


Godwin's Law. (2010). In Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia {for attempted humor only}
Retrieved January 20, 2010, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law


Eleanor Roosevelt. (1940's?). In Brainy Quote. Retrieved January 20, 2010, from http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 66988.html



Sand
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21 Jan 2010, 3:16 am

What does it mean "when it is not enforced"? Does it mean a nation without rules of citizenship? There are obligations and duties and privileges of citizenship. What enforcement is involved in your question?



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21 Jan 2010, 3:48 am

Sand wrote:
What does it mean "when it is not enforced"? Does it mean a nation without rules of citizenship? There are obligations and duties and privileges of citizenship. What enforcement is involved in your question?


The enforcement that I am referring to in my paper is the enforcement of loyalty to one's country.



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21 Jan 2010, 6:02 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
What does it mean "when it is not enforced"? Does it mean a nation without rules of citizenship? There are obligations and duties and privileges of citizenship. What enforcement is involved in your question?


The enforcement that I am referring to in my paper is the enforcement of loyalty to one's country.


There are particular conducts necessary for the citizens of a country to agree to for the country to exist and function. If these are not done voluntarily then they must be enforced to ensure the country to exist. Not all citizens agree as to precisely what those obligations are. Freedom is the agreement to perform those obligations agreed upon without official coercion. This is the nature of responsibility. Nobody is free to neglect those responsibilities. If they are not done willingly they must be coerced. I am not sure how loyalty fits into the matter.



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21 Jan 2010, 6:56 am

Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
What does it mean "when it is not enforced"? Does it mean a nation without rules of citizenship? There are obligations and duties and privileges of citizenship. What enforcement is involved in your question?


The enforcement that I am referring to in my paper is the enforcement of loyalty to one's country.


There are particular conducts necessary for the citizens of a country to agree to for the country to exist and function. If these are not done voluntarily then they must be enforced to ensure the country to exist. Not all citizens agree as to precisely what those obligations are. Freedom is the agreement to perform those obligations agreed upon without official coercion. This is the nature of responsibility. Nobody is free to neglect those responsibilities. If they are not done willingly they must be coerced. I am not sure how loyalty fits into the matter.


It depends on whether you are referring to loyalty in terms of being diligent to obey, or if you are referring to loyalty in terms of having respect for your country. Such as would you be proud to be a citizen of your country? A lot of what I'm reiterating is actually in my opening post.



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21 Jan 2010, 8:38 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
What does it mean "when it is not enforced"? Does it mean a nation without rules of citizenship? There are obligations and duties and privileges of citizenship. What enforcement is involved in your question?


The enforcement that I am referring to in my paper is the enforcement of loyalty to one's country.


There are particular conducts necessary for the citizens of a country to agree to for the country to exist and function. If these are not done voluntarily then they must be enforced to ensure the country to exist. Not all citizens agree as to precisely what those obligations are. Freedom is the agreement to perform those obligations agreed upon without official coercion. This is the nature of responsibility. Nobody is free to neglect those responsibilities. If they are not done willingly they must be coerced. I am not sure how loyalty fits into the matter.


It depends on whether you are referring to loyalty in terms of being diligent to obey, or if you are referring to loyalty in terms of having respect for your country. Such as would you be proud to be a citizen of your country? A lot of what I'm reiterating is actually in my opening post.


Isn't there a Biblical quotation "Pride goeth before a fall."?



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21 Jan 2010, 8:44 am

I will only be loyal to the land that feeds me --- sadly, the land I live in now has no farms.

What gives? Where should I claim as my homeland?


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21 Jan 2010, 8:54 am

A clear inspection of the history of any nation, and especially the powerful ones will reveal, with probably no exceptions, that the country has a very mixed history and has performed very inexcusably on many occasions. Pride does not seem to me to be something that can be extended unconditionally. Most of us make the best of the situation and the best of us tries to improve it.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Jan 2010, 9:17 am

Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
What does it mean "when it is not enforced"? Does it mean a nation without rules of citizenship? There are obligations and duties and privileges of citizenship. What enforcement is involved in your question?


The enforcement that I am referring to in my paper is the enforcement of loyalty to one's country.


There are particular conducts necessary for the citizens of a country to agree to for the country to exist and function. If these are not done voluntarily then they must be enforced to ensure the country to exist. Not all citizens agree as to precisely what those obligations are. Freedom is the agreement to perform those obligations agreed upon without official coercion. This is the nature of responsibility. Nobody is free to neglect those responsibilities. If they are not done willingly they must be coerced. I am not sure how loyalty fits into the matter.


It depends on whether you are referring to loyalty in terms of being diligent to obey, or if you are referring to loyalty in terms of having respect for your country. Such as would you be proud to be a citizen of your country? A lot of what I'm reiterating is actually in my opening post.


Isn't there a Biblical quotation "Pride goeth before a fall."?


Keywords, gotta hate them.



ruennsheng
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21 Jan 2010, 9:27 am

Sand wrote:
A clear inspection of the history of any nation, and especially the powerful ones will reveal, with probably no exceptions, that the country has a very mixed history and has performed very inexcusably on many occasions. Pride does not seem to me to be something that can be extended unconditionally. Most of us make the best of the situation and the best of us tries to improve it.


Oh I see. But for my country, where even the water I drink comes mostly from a bigger, more powerful neighbor... I think I will think different what will be the best situation to my case.

A different case could be stated in larger countries like Indonesia or the United States though.


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21 Jan 2010, 10:36 am

Hometown proud topic

One can be proud of one's roots as long as one realizes that such pride can never be static. Pride of place can evolve over time as changes occur. Enforced nationalism is nazism, or facism. History has shown us what eventually happens to such regimes.


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