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John_Browning
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26 Sep 2010, 4:14 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
So Americans deserve to sleep in a house just because they were born in America? That's horsesh**.

"I don't care if their families have to go sleep in a box."
That says it all doesn't it? Saying that such a difference in living conditions is just the way things should be is just wrong.

"If I want it I can have it but you want to have it you can't."

They can gladly have a house and a nice life. I don't have a problem with that. They just have to find a way to do it in Mexico. They need to make Felipe Calderon and the Mexican government make changes. Their incompetence should not create a crisis for us.


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Last edited by John_Browning on 26 Sep 2010, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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26 Sep 2010, 4:14 pm

John_Browning wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Also, I'm sick of this crap about "they could just clean up their country." One Mexican does not have the power to affect the whole country. One Mexican is just a slave to the system. That's how countries work. Even a small group of Mexicans don't have much power. The collective bourgoise have a lot of power but they won't use it to make things better because they are bourgoise and hate proletarians.

Well when they sneak in over here they always proceed to revert back to the same old s*** and turn what used to be a decent white community into a crime-ridden barrio.


Just whites eh? Where do you live? The fifties?


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26 Sep 2010, 4:15 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Well when they sneak in over here they always proceed to revert back to the same old s*** and turn what used to be a decent white community into a crime-ridden barrio.

Your crime-ridden barrio is still probably better than Mexico. You don't know how good you have it. Stop whining.
+1

i think we are humans firstly, and residents of a particular nation secondly. but nationalism is not too big in canada.


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hyperlexian
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26 Sep 2010, 4:17 pm

John_Browning wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
So Americans deserve to sleep in a house just because they were born in America? That's horsesh**.

"I don't care if their families have to go sleep in a box."
That says it all doesn't it? Saying that such a difference in living conditions is just the way things should be is just wrong.

"If I want it I can have it but you want to have it you can't."

They can gladly have a house and a nice life. I don't have a problem with that. They just have to find a way to do it in Mexico. They need to make Felipe Calderon and the Mexican government make changes. Their incompetence should not create a crisis for us.

oh, okay. just 'find a way'. easy. i wonder why so many americans live in poverty when the answer is so simple? they must not want prosperity badly enough, in your paradigm.


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John_Browning
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26 Sep 2010, 4:18 pm

Macbeth wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Also, I'm sick of this crap about "they could just clean up their country." One Mexican does not have the power to affect the whole country. One Mexican is just a slave to the system. That's how countries work. Even a small group of Mexicans don't have much power. The collective bourgoise have a lot of power but they won't use it to make things better because they are bourgoise and hate proletarians.

Well when they sneak in over here they always proceed to revert back to the same old s*** and turn what used to be a decent white community into a crime-ridden barrio.


Just whites eh? Where do you live? The fifties?

When Mexicans move into black neighborhoods, which tend to be sh*tty to begin with, then you have gang wars.


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26 Sep 2010, 4:20 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
the united states is apparently STILL desparate for cheap labour, because illegal immigrants find jobs. your argument actually proves the point - unskilled labour is vitally needed in capitalist countries, and illegal immigrants of yesterday and today fill that void.

Umm..... no. "Desperate" usually doesn't just mean that people can find jobs. As it stood, America was basically considered a "gold-mine" of opportunity at that time, and very very untapped. Today, America has a lot more people using it. So, with America of the early ages, we needed laborers so badly that we would promise them plots of land(a really huge thing given that plots of land were a sign that a person was really somebody) so that way they would come over. Today, all that we're really offering is very low-wages. Your definition of the word "desperate" would imply that people are desperate for anything cheaper than what they currently buy, however, that's not what the term desperate actually means.

Unskilled labor is needed, but unskilled laborers also exist within capitalist nations.

Quote:
we do have many, many unskilled people come to canada, both legally and illegally (we don't keep very good track of illegal immigrants here, so there are few repercussions). but they can carve out a place here too... just like we did. there are enough jobs for all of us. worth noting is the fact we have fewer illegal immigrants than the u.s. because we have a lot more *legal* immigration.

There are few repercussions in the US as well.

Right, because Canada shares a border with the third world? Look, that's really most likely the reason why you have less illegal immigrants. First off, most of your immigrants are not from Latin America, while a very large portion of illegal immigrants are, so it is doubtful that you are just diverting the inflow of Latin Americans into legal immigration. Secondly, the idea just makes little sense, as if these Latin American workers had Canada as an easy place to go to in order to legally reside and get legal wages(which are undoubtedly higher), then they would have to be stupid to immigrate to the US given the comparison.



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26 Sep 2010, 4:21 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
So Americans deserve to sleep in a house just because they were born in America? That's horsesh**.

"I don't care if their families have to go sleep in a box."
That says it all doesn't it? Saying that such a difference in living conditions is just the way things should be is just wrong.

"If I want it I can have it but you want to have it you can't."

They can gladly have a house and a nice life. I don't have a problem with that. They just have to find a way to do it in Mexico. They need to make Felipe Calderon and the Mexican government make changes. Their incompetence should not create a crisis for us.

oh, okay. just 'find a way'. easy. i wonder why so many americans live in poverty when the answer is so simple? they must not want prosperity badly enough, in your paradigm.

It's not easy, but it's not our problem either.


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hyperlexian
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26 Sep 2010, 4:22 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Macbeth wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Also, I'm sick of this crap about "they could just clean up their country." One Mexican does not have the power to affect the whole country. One Mexican is just a slave to the system. That's how countries work. Even a small group of Mexicans don't have much power. The collective bourgoise have a lot of power but they won't use it to make things better because they are bourgoise and hate proletarians.

Well when they sneak in over here they always proceed to revert back to the same old s*** and turn what used to be a decent white community into a crime-ridden barrio.


Just whites eh? Where do you live? The fifties?

When Mexicans move into black neighborhoods, which tend to be sh*tty to begin with, then you have gang wars.

well, thank goodness there are no white gangsters [/sarcasm].

but in reality... there is a good reason why members of a minority might turn to crime when they feel they have no options left... the systematic, widespread, lengthy subjugation of members of a certain group could definitely limit their opportunities and lead them to a life of crime (like the long-ago irish in new york). help improve their lives, and most of the issues disappear.


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26 Sep 2010, 4:33 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
but in reality... there is a good reason why members of a minority might turn to crime when they feel they have no options left... the systematic, widespread, lengthy subjugation of members of a certain group could definitely limit their opportunities and lead them to a life of crime (like the long-ago irish in new york). help improve their lives, and most of the issues disappear.

There are options for them. We give them a free high school education, we offer fee waivers for junior college, and there are fee waivers and scholarships to 4-year universities.


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hyperlexian
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26 Sep 2010, 4:35 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
the united states is apparently STILL desparate for cheap labour, because illegal immigrants find jobs. your argument actually proves the point - unskilled labour is vitally needed in capitalist countries, and illegal immigrants of yesterday and today fill that void.

Umm..... no. "Desperate" usually doesn't just mean that people can find jobs. As it stood, America was basically considered a "gold-mine" of opportunity at that time, and very very untapped. Today, America has a lot more people using it. So, with America of the early ages, we needed laborers so badly that we would promise them plots of land(a really huge thing given that plots of land were a sign that a person was really somebody) so that way they would come over. Today, all that we're really offering is very low-wages. Your definition of the word "desperate" would imply that people are desperate for anything cheaper than what they currently buy, however, that's not what the term desperate actually means.

Unskilled labor is needed, but unskilled laborers also exist within capitalist nations.

Quote:
we do have many, many unskilled people come to canada, both legally and illegally (we don't keep very good track of illegal immigrants here, so there are few repercussions). but they can carve out a place here too... just like we did. there are enough jobs for all of us. worth noting is the fact we have fewer illegal immigrants than the u.s. because we have a lot more *legal* immigration.

There are few repercussions in the US as well.

Right, because Canada shares a border with the third world? Look, that's really most likely the reason why you have less illegal immigrants. First off, most of your immigrants are not from Latin America, while a very large portion of illegal immigrants are, so it is doubtful that you are just diverting the inflow of Latin Americans into legal immigration. Secondly, the idea just makes little sense, as if these Latin American workers had Canada as an easy place to go to in order to legally reside and get legal wages(which are undoubtedly higher), then they would have to be stupid to immigrate to the US given the comparison.

can you point to some evidence that shows the actual reason for any difference between number of U.S. and canadian illegal immigrants? because i haven't seen anything in my internet travels, so at this point you are just speculating. it could equally be for either the reason you suggested, or the reason i suggested.

we need cheap labour today, just as much as we did back in the early days. back in the early days we needed ALL types of labour and professionals to emigrate. it is harder on modern employers to run a viable business because they cannot utilize slaves or indentured servants, and they have to pay minimum wage. i have no sympathy for those employers, of course... and if you want to prevent them from hiring illegal immigrants, then there are labour laws that clearly need to be enforced.

the need for cheap labour is proven by the number of illegal immigrants who are hired. they are desirable employees. to compete, you have a choice to be equally desirable, or go without a job.

the funny thing is that we still have to beg people to come to canada and the u.s.... both nations have a doctor shortage, so we have incentives to bring them over. so why does it bother people to have low-paid cooks and maids come to our countries, as opposed to professionals? both are necessary.


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26 Sep 2010, 4:36 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
Well when they sneak in over here they always proceed to revert back to the same old s*** and turn what used to be a decent white community into a crime-ridden barrio.

"White" is not a criterion for legality, nor is it synonymous with law-abiding decency.

You are aware of the existence of non-white Americans, right?

Quote:
Your crime-ridden barrio is still probably better than Mexico. You don't know how good you have it. Stop whining.

"Stop whining" is an argument against the illegal immigrants.


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26 Sep 2010, 4:45 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
So Americans deserve to sleep in a house just because they were born in America? That's horsesh**.

What does "deserve" have to do with it?

Also, last I checked, houses existed in Mexico too.


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26 Sep 2010, 5:06 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
can you point to some evidence that shows the actual reason for any difference between number of U.S. and canadian illegal immigrants? because i haven't seen anything in my internet travels, so at this point you are just speculating. it could equally be for either the reason you suggested, or the reason i suggested.

Umm.... I gave reasons. If Canada allows these people to immigrate legally, then it is a poor decision to immigrate to the US due to the comparative lack of legal protection(which is highly valuable). They still are immigrating to the US. This suggests that your reason is unlikely to be correct. Additionally speaking, geographic location both is economically important and practically important. So, no, I am not accepting your claim of equality. Given that the level of immigration into Canada suggests most of their immigrants are not from Latin America. (a stat found here: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidie ... 2a-eng.htm ) In fact, comparatively, the percent of legal immigrants from Latin America for Canada is dramatically less than the comparative percent of Latin American immigrants for the US. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/FS1 ... 051807.pdf This suggests that your rational is not likely to be correct. It makes little to no economic sense, and the idea of greater acceptance is not really matched by the Canadian data at all, which should predict high Latin American immigration(unless Latin American's have a strange love of the US for no apparent reason). I will not lie and hold that our rationales are equally valid. As it stands, "evidence for the actual reason" will either be interviews or speculation, and you have provided no reason that my speculations are highly invalid.

Quote:
we need cheap labour today, just as much as we did back in the early days. back in the early days we needed ALL types of labour and professionals to emigrate. it is harder on modern employers to run a viable business because they cannot utilize slaves or indentured servants, and they have to pay minimum wage. i have no sympathy for those employers, of course... and if you want to prevent them from hiring illegal immigrants, then there are labour laws that clearly need to be enforced.

No, we actually do not. Modern 1st World nations are not as dependent upon unskilled labor to provide value, and lots of unskilled labor jobs have been outsourced. If we were equally in need of cheap labor today, then we would expect that the cost of cheap labor in 1st World nations increase with the growth of the economy, but rather inequality of wages in 1st world nations is increasing. This suggests that relative to the immediate past, we have less need of unskilled labor. Comparison to times, such as the Industrial Revolution, and early America when people were ACTIVELY RECRUITING unskilled labor to come over, suggests that we have less need compared to then as well, as there is less of that perceived need.

Even further, the minimum wage is often economically irrelevant. Heavy labor requires more than minimum wages to induce workers to take those jobs. Even high schoolers often balk at the minimum wage. As it stands, minimum wages are usually practically irrelevant.

As for "harder on modern employers"? That's kind of ridiculous. Most 1st World nations are heavily service based economies. Do you think that slaves are good at providing service? In highly labor based-economies it is often a lot easier to measure labor, but in a service industry, it tends to be more difficult.

Quote:
the need for cheap labour is proven by the number of illegal immigrants who are hired. they are desirable employees. to compete, you have a choice to be equally desirable, or go without a job.

Umm.... I've already pointed out the problem with your measure of desperation. It leads to the reductio ad absurdum that any better deal is a source of desperation. I am not contesting that foreign labor may be a better deal than US labor for some activities, but rather I am contesting that the untapped opportunities are great enough that we would be "desperate" for resources to tap them. In the US, there is a choice between illegal immigrant labor, and somewhat more expensive US labor. In the past, there was only immigrant labor, and yet a lot of profitable opportunities that needed labor. Early US growth rates were massive, but modern growth rates are basically hovering around 3%, which is just a smidge higher than other 1st world nations.

Quote:
the funny thing is that we still have to beg people to come to canada and the u.s.... both nations have a doctor shortage, so we have incentives to bring them over. so why does it bother people to have low-paid cooks and maids come to our countries, as opposed to professionals? both are necessary.

That's not unskilled labor.

There are a large number of possible reasons to give:
1) It could be seen that unskilled labor is increasing national inequality by filling the labor market with other laborers, thus driving wages down.
2) It could be perceived that skilled labor will culturally integrate more easily to the native culture than unskilled labor.
3) It could be perceived that skilled labor is more valuable than unskilled labor. (which it is, given the price of a skilled laborer's efforts)



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26 Sep 2010, 5:19 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
can you point to some evidence that shows the actual reason for any difference between number of U.S. and canadian illegal immigrants? because i haven't seen anything in my internet travels, so at this point you are just speculating. it could equally be for either the reason you suggested, or the reason i suggested.

Umm.... I gave reasons. If Canada allows these people to immigrate legally, then it is a poor decision to immigrate to the US due to the comparative lack of legal protection(which is highly valuable). They still are immigrating to the US. This suggests that your reason is unlikely to be correct. Additionally speaking, geographic location both is economically important and practically important. So, no, I am not accepting your claim of equality. Given that the level of immigration into Canada suggests most of their immigrants are not from Latin America. (a stat found here: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidie ... 2a-eng.htm ) In fact, comparatively, the percent of legal immigrants from Latin America for Canada is dramatically less than the comparative percent of Latin American immigrants for the US. http://www.migrationpolicy.org/pubs/FS1 ... 051807.pdf This suggests that your rational is not likely to be correct. It makes little to no economic sense, and the idea of greater acceptance is not really matched by the Canadian data at all, which should predict high Latin American immigration(unless Latin American's have a strange love of the US for no apparent reason). I will not lie and hold that our rationales are equally valid. As it stands, "evidence for the actual reason" will either be interviews or speculation, and you have provided no reason that my speculations are highly invalid.

Quote:
we need cheap labour today, just as much as we did back in the early days. back in the early days we needed ALL types of labour and professionals to emigrate. it is harder on modern employers to run a viable business because they cannot utilize slaves or indentured servants, and they have to pay minimum wage. i have no sympathy for those employers, of course... and if you want to prevent them from hiring illegal immigrants, then there are labour laws that clearly need to be enforced.

No, we actually do not. Modern 1st World nations are not as dependent upon unskilled labor to provide value, and lots of unskilled labor jobs have been outsourced. If we were equally in need of cheap labor today, then we would expect that the cost of cheap labor in 1st World nations increase with the growth of the economy, but rather inequality of wages in 1st world nations is increasing. This suggests that relative to the immediate past, we have less need of unskilled labor. Comparison to times, such as the Industrial Revolution, and early America when people were ACTIVELY RECRUITING unskilled labor to come over, suggests that we have less need compared to then as well, as there is less of that perceived need.

Even further, the minimum wage is often economically irrelevant. Heavy labor requires more than minimum wages to induce workers to take those jobs. Even high schoolers often balk at the minimum wage. As it stands, minimum wages are usually practically irrelevant.

As for "harder on modern employers"? That's kind of ridiculous. Most 1st World nations are heavily service based economies. Do you think that slaves are good at providing service? In highly labor based-economies it is often a lot easier to measure labor, but in a service industry, it tends to be more difficult.

Quote:
the need for cheap labour is proven by the number of illegal immigrants who are hired. they are desirable employees. to compete, you have a choice to be equally desirable, or go without a job.

Umm.... I've already pointed out the problem with your measure of desperation. It leads to the reductio ad absurdum that any better deal is a source of desperation. I am not contesting that foreign labor may be a better deal than US labor for some activities, but rather I am contesting that the untapped opportunities are great enough that we would be "desperate" for resources to tap them. In the US, there is a choice between illegal immigrant labor, and somewhat more expensive US labor. In the past, there was only immigrant labor, and yet a lot of profitable opportunities that needed labor. Early US growth rates were massive, but modern growth rates are basically hovering around 3%, which is just a smidge higher than other 1st world nations.

Quote:
the funny thing is that we still have to beg people to come to canada and the u.s.... both nations have a doctor shortage, so we have incentives to bring them over. so why does it bother people to have low-paid cooks and maids come to our countries, as opposed to professionals? both are necessary.

That's not unskilled labor.

There are a large number of possible reasons to give:
1) It could be seen that unskilled labor is increasing national inequality by filling the labor market with other laborers, thus driving wages down.
2) It could be perceived that skilled labor will culturally integrate more easily to the native culture than unskilled labor.
3) It could be perceived that skilled labor is more valuable than unskilled labor. (which it is, given the price of a skilled laborer's efforts)
all you have proven on the first point is that most of your illegal immigrants are from latin america, which is likely because of proximity. outr illegal immigrants come from other countries. your data says nothing about why canada has fewer illegal immigrants than the united states, and therefore you have not disproven my point that canada probably has fewer illegal immigrants because we have more LEGAL immigration.

during the industrial revlution we were also soliciting SKILLED labour (also women, who largely did not work at all). your argument about cheap labour does not make sense. perhaps you should clarify?

i did not state that doctors are unskilled labour - i was making the point that we still need immigration to fulfill a purpose, both with skilled and unskilled labour. and since you don't allow unsilled labourers into the u.s. very easily, their best recourse is to come over illegally. they are filling a gap.


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26 Sep 2010, 5:29 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
all you have proven on the first point is that most of your illegal immigrants are from latin america, which is likely because of proximity. outr illegal immigrants come from other countries. your data says nothing about why canada has fewer illegal immigrants than the united states, and therefore you have not disproven my point that canada probably has fewer illegal immigrants because we have more LEGAL immigration.

Ok then, now that we get down to that:
1) Illegal immigration is greatly facilitated by location. (reflected by US illegal immigration from latin america)
2) Canada is not located next to any nation in which many illegal immigrants would come from.
3) Therefore it should be expected that Canada has less illegal immigrants.

Given that a LOT of illegal immigrants come into the US based upon location, it stands to reason that location has a HUGE effect on illegal immigration. Canada, not having a good location for illegal immigration, should be expected to have significantly less illegal immigrants than the US. Basically, location has an explanation makes more sense than your explanation, otherwise, we should expect a more diverse illegal immigration background in the US.

Quote:
during the industrial revlution we were also soliciting SKILLED labour (also women, who largely did not work at all). your argument about cheap labour does not make sense. perhaps you should clarify?

Umm..... ok? That's not relevant. The soliciation of unskilled labor is all that is relevant.

I am not going to clarify. I really am coming from the perspective that your own opinions are likely muddled.

Quote:
i did not state that doctors are unskilled labour - i was making the point that we still need immigration to fulfill a purpose, both with skilled and unskilled labour. and since you don't allow unsilled labourers into the u.s. very easily, their best recourse is to come over illegally. they are filling a gap.

You haven't made your point. I doubt you really have enough of a background in economics to even frame your opinion in something I would find to be approaching sense.