Pro-choice AND Pro-life.

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Branched off from a previous thread:

Yeah, I'm glad she chose me, especially considering that everything was in place for her to dispose of me with nobody, even my father, ever knowing that I even existed. It's the kind of relief that comes at winning Russian roulette with 1 in 4 odds. (To be clear: it was her Catholic faith, and specific pro-life belief, that was her grounding against the particular choice. If those weren't there, neither would I be.)

Of course it is a choice, LKL. Anything we do or do not do in life is a choice. The question is, what is the choice? Some choices hardly matter, and neither do their consequences. Some choices do matter but are morally neutral, and we call wrong choices "unwise". Some carry moral weight, and we call wrong choices "crimes". Should all crimes be legal, just to give us that happy feeling that nobody was forced to not murder or rape or rob us - yet, anyway?

It isn't about choice. It's about what's being chosen and what the consequences are and ought to be.

Choice and life topic

The thing is, NB, if you had never been born you would not know it anyway.

Life is both a gift and a curse. Every time I wake up I realize I am still alive. I remember much of my own past, to recall just how long I have lived, My mother did say I was a wanted child, though as I grew from infancy I am sure the novelty wore off.

But I digress yet again. The odds against that any of us are alive are astronomical.

This is quite a heavy subject, and very speculative. But I look at it this way also: If I was not here the world would still turn, but I would like to leave the world a better place, now that I still trod upon this planet (both Wrong and the larger one). But saving every zef that has ever been nooshed, either mine or others, is not a choice I wish to make.

I consider "pro choice" to be little more than deceitful rhetoric.

Clearly either option is a "choice" but one side says the life of the unborn is the highest priority. The other side says that the right of the mother to terminate her pregnancy is the highest priority.

Basically, you are for abortion or against abortion. Being "pro abortion" makes you look bad, so they make it more PC.

You can put all the focus on the right of a person to decide what to do with her body, but you can't just ignore that exercising that right involves violating another body...another life.

"The thing is, NB, if you had never been born you would not know it anyway. "

Pascal says, "Do you want to bet?"

Suppose - unlikely scenario though it was - my mother had aborted me.

I would not be on earth to know about it.

But if I am a human being - which I affirm though some choose to deny it,

And if I have an immortal soul - which I affirm though some choose to deny it,

And if God IS - which I know though some, not having seen, honestly doubt it,

then in eternity I WOULD know about it.

AND if God IS, HE would know about it.

And - as the Buddhist story I quoted to someone here a few days ago points out - my mother would know it, as would anyone else involved in aborting me.

I have not talked on these things to many who have been there, but I know in my limited acquaintance three women who have aborted children. All three have heart-achingly regretted it. One was nearly killed by it - not the operation, this was a modern abortion, but by the psychic stress and distress.

Of course there is choice, no law can give or take away a choice, just modify the set of possible outcomes. Choose what you like, and pay for it, says God - thus the proverb.

But there is no choice without consequences.

I consider "pro life" to be little more than deceitful rhetoric.

Clearly either option is a "choice" but one side says the life of the unborn is the highest priority. The other side says that the right of the mother to terminate her pregnancy is the highest priority.

Basically, you are for women rights or against women. Being "anti women rights" makes you look bad, so they make it more PC.

You can put all the focus on the supposed life of a supposed potential person, but you can't just ignore that making pregnancies mandatory involves violating the rights a woman has to decide what happens in her own body.

Wrong-o, buddy boy.

The unfettered abortion rhetoric says loudly and often that the life of a blob of dependent cells is arguably no life, clearly is not human, and certainly does not count.

Others say it is certainly life, is human life, and counts.

How many opposing the current say if there is a choice between this life and that, THIS one must always die?

Those with the stream do not require "only one can live" to turn thumbs down.

It all goes down to people not liking the idea that a woman should be able to decide for herself. It boils your blood to think that a woman may disagree with your archaic idea that a fetus is holy life holier than innocent kids killed during wars on terrorism and actually take a decision for herself about her body. I know it really annoys you that a gal wouldn't just comply with your beliefs about fetus life and just go through 9 months of being host to that life sucking organism, just to make you, and your beliefs happy.

If a woman thinks that unwanted fetus is holy life, then so be it, let her go on with the abortion and ruin two lives. That's what "anti-life" people think. We legitimately call ourselves pro-choice because we are not forcing any woman to comply with our views.

"Pro-life" people, on the other hand, believe it is a moral argument of life and death and that nobody should be able to make a choice in this regards. Effectively, a woman's body becomes not an object she has power of decision for, but just a host for a life you have decided should continue and develop into a child. The woman is by all means being forced intro pregnancy. She does not have any will or say about it, even though it is going to be her body that doubles in size, and her body that will have to provide most of her nutrients to its guest. She is going to be the one that pukes all night long. The one who will have to carry a weight. The one who will have to quit her job because who is going to think a pregnant woman can do desk work? And when all is done, she is going to be the one that coldly gives her child to adoption and regrets it for the rest of her life, or the one that keeps the whole responsibility of a child, which is no easy responsibility at all. That's all the stuff a woman has to go through to comply with your so-called "pro-life" ideas.

Rhetoric will not change the one fact that "pro-choice" - which is as much rhetoric as "pro-life" as a slogan - will not look in the face.

Calling it rhetoric does not change the fact that:
a) The 'anti-life' view allows the pregnant woman to decide for herself that the fetus is holy life and not get an abortion.
b) The 'pro-life' view forces every pregnant woman to comply.

If you want to argue that you are pro-life but think that a woman should be able to choose for herself, then I guess you are up for the legalization of abortion.

The pregnant man revisted topic

In my travels here on earth I have mostly encountered men who were the most vociferous proclaimers of the prolife movement. In the other thread there has been mention that paternalism and need for control over the female body to be the root causes of this obsession.

We really do need reproductive equality here. When men can become pregnant, or sustain a pregnancy, maybe then they will understand what Vexcaliber has written.

I DO wish more people would trouble to read and try to think.

A. GOD allows everyone to choose how to live, what to think, what to strive for. It is called Free Will. He does NOT - obviously - prevent anyone from desiring, choosing, having or performing an abortion, just as he does not block thieves, murderers, slanderers or Linguists from making and acting on their choices.

B. I as a specimen of Christian, could not if I tried prevent much of anyone from wanting, thinking, acting in whatever way. If you broke into my house I might, with police help, be able to interfere with your plans. At one point I was able to reguilate a lot of Number 1 Son's behavior - no more. If you tell me you are going to give an abortion to every pregnant woman in New York City, I could not if I tried do anything about it. If you told me you were going to kill every abortionist in New York City I could not stop those murders any more than the first set.

C. If laws are passed to restrict or prohibit abortion, they will not affect choice, though they should make a difference to acting on those choices. They will not prevent abortion, nor in all cases punish it.

D. If laws are passed promoting abortion beyond what is current in our culture, they will not affect choice, though they will make a difference to acting on those choices. They will not prevent childbearing, not in all cases punish it.

I am NOT in the sense in which it is normally understood "prochoice". Whether or not society passes and enforces laws, I would prefer to see society ceasing to encourage abortion and so called euthanasia and designating this or that group as not adequately human. I would support a law that might contribute to such a change. I would not expect it to remain unbroken.

I do not NEED to be prochoice in the basic sense of the term. How can a man own a tree, said my friend. How can I stop you from making choices, I say.

Take what you like and pay for it, says God.

God(win or lose) law topic

Women invariably lose rights when a god is invoked. The only ones who win subscribe to paternalism, exemplified in the post above.

I take responsibility for my reproductive rights--to sustain a pregnancy or pregnancies, and to chose whether or not to have children (I have three). I am fortunate to live in a time when this is possible without penalty, at least thus far, unless neofascist paternalism reappears in binding legislation. Some women choose other ways to express their reproductive rights. This is called democracy. Democracy is a fragile form of governance, but ensures freedom of choice.

Get used to democratic freedom, as this is what many in history have fought and died for, and this is still going on, this time in North Africa and the Middle East.

A. An inexistent entity cannot allow people to do anything.
B. aha
C. So, your point is, you are not anti-choice, you just want most people that make the choice you oppose to be punished. What a difference.
D. Pro-choice don't want to pass laws that promote abortion, they just want it to be legal.

I DO wish more people would trouble to read and try to think.

May God richly bless you.

Blessings from god topic

Such a "god" must be one sarcastic bastard.

Ah, yet another thread about this fun and stimulating topic. Awesome!