Abortion

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ruveyn
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16 Mar 2011, 9:18 am

georgewbush wrote:

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

It should be legal right up until birth. Infanticide is occasionally justifiable, too.

.

And what is birth other than a meaningless invisible man-made demarcator line?

Intrinsically, how is a a fetus different between one second from birth and one second after birth?

Only difference is that a born fetus can breath external air. It no longer gets its oxygen supply from its mother.

ruveyn

georgewbush
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16 Mar 2011, 9:21 am

ruveyn wrote:

georgewbush wrote:

you_are_what_you_is wrote:

It should be legal right up until birth. Infanticide is occasionally justifiable, too.

.

And what is birth other than a meaningless invisible man-made demarcator line?

Intrinsically, how is a a fetus different between one second from birth and one second after birth?

Only difference is that a born fetus can breath external air. It no longer gets its oxygen supply from its mother.

ruveyn

The argument is basically of dependence.

And a newborn baby isn't dependent?

Perhaps they could breathe on their own, but can they obtain food by themselves?

you_are_what_you_is
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16 Mar 2011, 9:25 am

georgewbush wrote:

And what is birth other than a meaningless invisible man-made demarcator line?

Intrinsically, how is a a fetus different between one second from birth and one second after birth?

There's nothing special about it, but we have to draw the line somewhere. I draw the line at birth because once the baby is born it's no longer part of the woman's body - so her autonomy is no longer an issue.

I made it clear that I don't consider the line to be inviolable. As I said, infanticide is occasionally justifiable.

I have a similar approach to age of consent laws. I think the age of consent should be 14. Is there a significant between somebody one day before they're 14 and one day after they're 14? No, and you could say the same for any age. Should we therefore abolish age of consent laws or make it illegal for any person of any age to have sex? Both of those would be very odd conclusions. (So I say 14, but I'd add that for those under 14, if the court determines that the minor wasn't abused and was capable of informed consent, his/her partner(s) shouldn't be punished.)

.

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MCalavera
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16 Mar 2011, 9:28 am

georgewbush wrote:

MCalavera wrote:

georgewbush wrote:

Pro-life lacks objectivity? Maybe, and if so, what objectivity does pro-choice have?

Of course, if the mother's life is in peril, that is an extreme case that may justify abortion (most pro-life advocates don't deny this), so that does not make for a strong argument.

But it's still good to point out the intellectual inconsistency that pro-lifers have to "struggle" with.

To your response to both 91 and myself, you did not substantiate your initial claims, but rather iterated them.

Advocates of the pro-life position do not "struggle" with what you deem as "inconsistency".

If it is a decision between abortion of one life or the loss of no lives, I would easily favor the latter.
If it is between abortion of one life or the abortion of one life and the loss of another life, the former is the lesser of two evils.

So God didn't care for the life of that child. And, thus, you had to make a choice here.

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16 Mar 2011, 9:34 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Don't think the fetus is of ethical importance. Also, side note: early fetuses look like shrimp.

*licks lips

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91
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16 Mar 2011, 9:36 am

@MCalavera

Do you think that being pro-life means there is not choice? Or that making any choice makes one pro-choice? Thats silly. Being pro-life means doing everything you can for life. Being pro-choice means placing the decision always in the hands of the woman regardless of the rights of the child. What are you actually trying to say?

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visagrunt
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16 Mar 2011, 11:04 am

I am not thrilled by the artificial demarcation by trimester.

I choose to draw my line at 20 weeks gestational age, which is a conservative estimate for fetal viability, based on medical knowledge and practice available today. 20 weeks g.a. falls within the second trimester, so I have to opt for the "beyond the first trimester option," even though that connotes a longer period of acceptability than I currently subscribe to.

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Jacoby
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16 Mar 2011, 11:35 am

I'm against it except in extreme cases such as the mother's life being in danger. The unborn's right to life trumps the mother's right to privacy. I find the whole discussion of their dependence as a justification for their murder ridiculous as all children are dependent, hell 90% of the adult population are dependent. Should homeless and mentally ill people be "aborted"?

georgewbush
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16 Mar 2011, 2:32 pm

I agree 100% with Jacoby.

People need to realize that removing a fetus is not the same thing as removing another body part.

MCalavera
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16 Mar 2011, 4:04 pm

91 wrote:

I'll be honest. This is the first time I actually argue about abortion. So I should've made sure of the actual definitions before posting.

I still think you seem to care more for the life of a fetus than God does (whose standards are the reason you believe abortion is wrong, right?)

For me, it's not about an issue of human life. It's about having respect and taking responsibility for one's actions.

But if a woman was raped and got pregnant as a result, I'm not going to say that she should have the child because having PTSD and being forcefully persuaded to have a constant reminder of her traumatizing experience (i.e. the baby) would be a greater evil than committing abortion in this case.

It's not all black or white for me. The mother has no right to kill her fetus just because she chooses to, but she does have the right to live a fair life of emotional comfort.

JakobVirgil
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16 Mar 2011, 4:11 pm

Pro-life and pro-choice are weasel definitions they have built-in implied strawmen.
anti-life? anti-choice? please.

pro-abortion rights anti-abortion rights are much clearer.

a plurality folk in america (according to polls) fall in the ok first trimester group.

unless the idiotic and shrill emotional terms life and choice are used.

then we are at WAR grr arrgh. its stupid.

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tandykins
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16 Mar 2011, 9:01 pm

When I think about whether or not I agree with current abortion laws, I ask myself what I would do - or would want to have the CHOICE to do.

It's not always a case of a woman not taking precautions. Not always a case of her not wanting another child or her not being responsible.

Consider my case. I had a baby 6 months ago and I had SEVERE postnatal depression...I still do. Only now am I able to cope when left alone with the baby - and I still have issues sometimes.

To be careful, I got a birth control implant after his birth so that I wouldn't get pregnant again until I was ready mentally and financially.

...but what if it fails? I got that implant because I KNOW that right now I can't emotionally handle another pregnancy and another child and I know that our finances are in FAR too dire a shape to afford a second child. I think that it would be irresponsible of me at this juncture to have another child - even to carry a pregnancy to term and to put the child up for adoption because the last pregnancy was so hard on my body, I'm still recovering 6 months later and will probably have mobility problems for years.

...so if my birth control failed, I would probably get an abortion. I wouldn't like it but I would see it as a necessity. I don't think that it's always so black and white.

JakobVirgil
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16 Mar 2011, 9:09 pm

tandykins wrote:

if I said prayers they would be with you.
depression is a son of a something or other.
I struggle with it all the time.
when there are real people with real suffering idealogy and dogma kinda pale in comparision.
good luck to you. its chemical (and thus real) and it will pass.
oy
-Jake

StevieC
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16 Mar 2011, 9:15 pm

altho, to be fair, even if its illegal, people will still do it.

murder is illegal, and people still murder each other

aghogday
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16 Mar 2011, 10:34 pm

MCalavera wrote:

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Don't think the fetus is of ethical importance. Also, side note: early fetuses look like shrimp.

Well, it is of some importance to me and to many. After all, it does become a human being that is you and me ... unlike a shrimp.

As far as when a fetus is aware of self, I remember an article in Discover Magazine suggesting that a fetus develops self awareness by the 14th week of gestation based on planned motor activity for interaction between twins. Quote from the original study below and link to that study here:

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0013199

Quote:

Conclusions/Significance
We conclude that performance of movements towards the co-twin is not accidental: already starting from the 14th week of gestation twin foetuses execute movements specifically aimed at the co-twin.

Since abortion is going to occur whether it is legal or not, I can't see any sanity but to make it as painless a procedure for mother and fetus as possible. But, the idea that a fetus is not a life of significance at 14 weeks, falls short of reality, in my opinion; based on the research above.

Infanticide is common among primates; and has always been a part of the human experience. The negative aspect I see, if abortion was made illegal, is the suffering an unwanted infant and mother might endure after birth. It is a common occurence in undeveloped nations that don't have access to legal abortion.

Trying to imagine being a woman with a choice of abortion, I would do it as soon as feasible during the pregnancy.

AceOfSpades
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16 Mar 2011, 10:47 pm

aghogday wrote:

Murder is going to occur whether it's legal or not too. This logic makes sense when applied under the context of drugs, but under the context of abortion it is absurd since the use of illegal drugs are merely a victimless crime.

aghogday wrote:

Infanticide is common among primates; and has always been a part of the human experience. The negative aspect I see, if abortion was made illegal, is the suffering an unwanted infant and mother might endure after birth. It is a common occurence in undeveloped nations that don't have access to legal abortion.

Trying to imagine being a woman with a choice of abortion, I would do it as soon as feasible during the pregnancy.

Potential suffering doesn't guarantee a low quality of life. Matter of fact 79% of military suicides have happened when the soldier has either been deployed once or not at all, whereas veterans have suicide rates similar to the general population. Take into consideration that the general population includes men, women, boys, girls, the elderly, etc and veterans can either be just as mentally healthy or healthier.

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