Abortion

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Yes, this is not a victimless issue. Making abortion illegal promotes victimizing women into forced pregnancies and then, after the birth, a whole new human being is victimized by making he live a life that was not intended or planned to happen. Making this new human be the source of frustration for his/her own mother. It does not strike me as humane, you know.

If men gave birth people would see this issue quite differently. Criminalizing abortion would further decrease the life chances of mainly poor and uneducated women. If you're going to criminalize abortion then you'd have to force fathers to raise offspring against their will further adding misery to the life of the woman and child. It's just a terrible idea that almost no social good can derive from.

I'm more in favour of the rights of the living than i am of the yet to be born.

I'm referring to the suffering of infanticide; in other words "throwing the infant off the cliff or abandoning the infant". A harsh reality, but a reality none the less. In this case it is a guarantee of a low quality of life.

I'd like to think that if I was a woman I would be able to avoid a choice of abortion, but I can't pass that judgement on somone else or even myself because I can't walk in those shoes.

For a woman that is raped a legal abortion is certainly a more logical and ethical choice than an illegal abortion, a person might call it murder until they were the recipient of the act that led to the pregnancy.

Likewise, it doesn't strike me as humane to deny a baby the right to live because of inconvenience or because of someone else's deterministic speculation of what the baby's quality of life will be. If the mother doesn't want to deal with such an inconvenience, then she should either abstain or make sure her partner has the rubber on tight. Even then, there's an ever so slight risk of conception and both the woman and the man should accept that risk if they choose to take it.

My pro-life stance is bigger than just "At what point is the fetus is considered a baby?". I am against abortion on mere principle. I'm a believer in the fact that people shouldn't just bail out of responsibility just because they made a decision that lead to them carrying such a burden. And nothing victimizes women into forced pregnancies, that is a choice that they make. Violent video games don't victimize people into crime, that type of lifestyle is a conscious choice. Ego-syntonicity isn't highly malleable to circumstance, though it is highly malleable to mentality.

Are you against abortion in cases of Rape, or the endangerment of a mothers life? Is there any situation that warrants a legal abortion?

It depends on what the definition of "humane" is. I define "humane" as the option which best prevents or reduces suffering and promotes happiness. Who, exactly, suffers in the event of an abortion?

This is aside from the assertion that there is an inherent "right to life" in the first place,
when said life is dependent on the will of someone else.
Even if you believe all people have a right to shelter,
I imagine you'd still believe it YOUR right to kick me out of YOUR home whenever you wanted to,
even if it was you who invited me to stay.

Someone who calls pregnancy and childbirth a mere "inconvenience"has undoubtedly never been pregnant.

It's interesting that in your view, pre-conception, women have all the responsibility, and yet post-conception, none of the options,
as if their autonomy magically evaporates.


This is relevant, IF one believes that a woman, once knocked up, has a "responsibility" to continue pregnancy and give birth against her will. I have to refer back to my earlier question, regarding "humane": who, exactly, benefits from such a situation?


If the women in question CHOSE to become pregnant, they would not be seeking abortions, would they?

Quite true...identical debates were had at the beginning of the 20th century about "prophylactics",
a few decades later, about the birth control pill,
and now, abortion.

Women have always had to fight paternalizing and patriarchal forces tooth and nail for reproductive freedom.
The only difference now is that, since the "rise of secularism" (as discussed in another thread)
opponents of choice can't appeal DIRECTLY to the divine authority of bronze-age fairy tales,
but have to repackage their "arguments" as pseudo-humanist, (as evidenced by their constant appeals to the humanity of the fetus)-
this despite the fact that if their views were legislated into actuality,
it would have an effect that was nothing less than barbaric as far as human rights are concerned.

Likewise, the original "pregnancy and childbirth as punishment for sin, IE sex"
has been even more thinly-veiled into the "responsibility" spiel.

More precisely you are more in favour of the rights of the born than you are of the not yet born.

ruveyn

^^^^^

It is interesting how everyone who favors the rights of the born is already born. Many of those same people oppose the death penalty on the grounds that they could be wrongly convicted. The odds of being aborted are much higher though at around one in four.

Where did you get that number?

And even if true, so what?

ruveyn

the number of spontaneous (God given?) abortions are much higher.
about 50% of fertialized eggs are rejected by the body of the mother.
most without the knowlege of the mother.
the one in four is a little missleading a woman can have several abortions in 9 month period
but really only one completed pregnancy.
so silly girls that use abortion as their primary form of birth control can run up the numbers.

My view is that if abortion was not an economic issue and if people would use birth control (like sane folks)
we could reduce abortion.
a very noble goal in my oppinion.

-Jake

@Ruveyn

In answer to your first question:

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reprod ... -Facts.htm

In answer to the second, I think the first number should speak for itself.

@JakobVirgil

The US Congress and Canadian Parliament got sent a good documentary last month on the economic costs of abortion. I recommend you check it out, it might challenge some of your ideas about the two subjects.

My views are that if less women were in dire circumstance there would be less abortion
and that birth control and education decrease abortion.
are these wrong views?

-Jake

@JakobVirgil

To be honest, I am not sure. There seem to be, in my mind, four economic aspects:

The poverty aspect. The idea that abortion lowers incidence of poverty. There seems good evidence for both sides. This to me seems the most contentious. I am open to being convinced either way.

The missing citizens. The idea that the aborted children would be taxpayers and so we are missing something. This seems to be quite true in the case of Eastern Europe and Russia.

Gendercide. There can be no doubt that in many societies the lack of women will have an economic impact eventually.

The overpopulation argument. The idea that we need less people anyway. This seems to be pure Malthusian thinking, so I do not buy it.

Overall I am pro life for ethical reasons, so the economic question, while interesting is not central to my thinking on the subject.

btw great stats
(1) I don't know if having the abortion cures poverty but poverty seems to be the reason for many of them.
denmark a country with loads of economic justice has a 19% abortion rate and the U.S. has 22.6% in the same year.
so lets pick a poor country were it is legal. czech repub 42.3% and can they be more Godless than the Danes .

(2) missing citizens is a bit silly as I said a woman can have terminated pregnacies in a year but only one complete one.
so the population increase in a world without abortion could be more but not 20% more
Also it ironically missing citizens can be an argument against Abstinence

(3) that seems to be a self-limiting problem.

(4) becomes moot as abortion may not decrease pop growth. (and is a horrific method of population control if it does)


I would like to see abortion relagated to a rare medical Procedure because people don't have other reasons (economic social) to have one.

I lack faith that criminalization is the path to this end.

-Jake