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Abortion
Should be illegal, except in extreme cases 25%  25%  [ 14 ]
Should be legal during the first trimester only 24%  24%  [ 13 ]
Should be legal beyond the first trimester 47%  47%  [ 26 ]
Undecided 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 55

LKL
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19 Mar 2011, 1:59 am

Promoting abstinence was one thing when everyone got married in their teens; it is entirely another when people get married in their mid- to late-20's.



Bethie
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19 Mar 2011, 2:01 am

Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
@ aghogday

A good way to avoid having premarital sex for starters is don't do illegal substances and don't drink alcohol. Getting drunk or high makes one lose their sense of judgement.


People still want to have sex regardless of intoxication; blaming it on sex, drugs and rock & roll hasn't worked for the past 50 years, why would it suddenly now?


More than 50 years, even!

"Stay away froooom
jazz and liquor
and the men whoooo
play for fun!"

-Chicago


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Last edited by Bethie on 19 Mar 2011, 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

Raymond_Fawkes
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19 Mar 2011, 2:10 am

I would like to see more of a value system of traditionalism, however I would never tell someone else how to live their life. I wouldn't take someones freedom of choice away just because I don't want to see it from happening. Education can also play a role in deterring potentially bad decisions.



ikorack
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19 Mar 2011, 3:38 am

Vigilans wrote:
aghogday wrote:
As far as the heat of the moment goes; it's in almost every nook and cranny of our culture.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlTvWvfEMxE[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBnyvF8j6bQ[/youtube]



Vigilans
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19 Mar 2011, 11:59 am

ikorack wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
aghogday wrote:
As far as the heat of the moment goes; it's in almost every nook and cranny of our culture.


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlTvWvfEMxE[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBnyvF8j6bQ[/youtube]


:lmao: , nice!
Bethie wrote:
More than 50 years, even!

"Stay away froooom
jazz and liquor
and the men whoooo
play for fun!"

-Chicago


:lol: So true eh. "Those kids and their doo-wop, jazz music, Chuck Berry & reefers!! You stay away from those beatniks little Jimmy!"


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Tensu
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20 Mar 2011, 6:55 am

LKL wrote:
If the attachee did not deliberately put them in that condition, the attachee does not deserve that punishment.


that's debatable. After all, having sex makes babies. that's common knowledge.

Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.



ruveyn
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20 Mar 2011, 7:24 am

Tensu wrote:
LKL wrote:
If the attachee did not deliberately put them in that condition, the attachee does not deserve that punishment.


that's debatable. After all, having sex makes babies. that's common knowledge.

Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.


Fetuses are alive. They have a human genome. But they are not persons.

ruveyn



Tensu
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20 Mar 2011, 7:28 am

ruveyn wrote:
Tensu wrote:
LKL wrote:
If the attachee did not deliberately put them in that condition, the attachee does not deserve that punishment.


that's debatable. After all, having sex makes babies. that's common knowledge.

Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.


Fetuses are alive. They have a human genome. But they are not persons.

ruveyn


two questions:

1. how do you define a "person"?

2. what gives you the authority to decide what constitutes a "person"?



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20 Mar 2011, 7:33 am

Tensu wrote:

two questions:

1. how do you define a "person"?

2. what gives you the authority to decide what constitutes a "person"?


I have no such authority. A person is a sentient being who is self aware, capable of having intentions, is autonomous in its behavior and is capable of reason. Human newborns are not yet persons. Why? They do not have enough brain mass and neural interconnections. In six months they are persons or very close and when they have language they are persons. Having language is clear sign of reason.

ruveyn



ikorack
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20 Mar 2011, 7:50 am

Tensu wrote:
Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.


mmm, you can't rally call them independent, not even children are considered independent, you can't call them antonymous either because the vast majority of fetus would die outside their womb.



Tensu
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20 Mar 2011, 8:28 am

ikorack wrote:
Tensu wrote:
Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.


mmm, you can't rally call them independent, not even children are considered independent, you can't call them antonymous either because the vast majority of fetus would die outside their womb.


Look up the seven requirements of life and you'll see what I mean when I say "independent lifeform". :roll:



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20 Mar 2011, 8:41 am

Tensu wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Tensu wrote:
Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.


mmm, you can't rally call them independent, not even children are considered independent, you can't call them antonymous either because the vast majority of fetus would die outside their womb.


Look up the seven requirements of life and you'll see what I mean when I say "independent lifeform". :roll:


http://www.sciencemag.org/content/295/5563/2215.full

Is all I could(I didn't look very so that could be it), it you are using a concept that I am unfamiliar with source it.



ryan93
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20 Mar 2011, 8:42 am

Those requirements are very outdated; NASA has a far more reasonable list. In decreasing order of importance, life requires...

A thermodynamic disequilibrium;
An environment capable of maintaining covalent bonds, especially between carbon, hydrogen, and other atoms;
A liquid environment; and
A molecular system that can support Darwinian evolution.

Life is not sacred in itself, we kill millions and millions of bacteria every day. Potential life is even less sacred. Sentience is king in deciding what has rights, and what doesn't.


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Oodain
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20 Mar 2011, 10:12 am

ryan93 wrote:
Those requirements are very outdated; NASA has a far more reasonable list. In decreasing order of importance, life requires...

A thermodynamic disequilibrium;
An environment capable of maintaining covalent bonds, especially between carbon, hydrogen, and other atoms;
A liquid environment; and
A molecular system that can support Darwinian evolution.

Life is not sacred in itself, we kill millions and millions of bacteria every day. Potential life is even less sacred. Sentience is king in deciding what has rights, and what doesn't.


thank you, very clear cut.


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Inuyasha
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20 Mar 2011, 3:56 pm

ikorack wrote:
Tensu wrote:
ikorack wrote:
Tensu wrote:
Quote:
a zef is not a lifeform in of itself. It uses someone else's digestive tract, someone else's kidneys, someone else's liver, etc.


But, to my knowledge, it still has a metabolism, which means it is still an independent lifeform.


mmm, you can't rally call them independent, not even children are considered independent, you can't call them antonymous either because the vast majority of fetus would die outside their womb.


Look up the seven requirements of life and you'll see what I mean when I say "independent lifeform". :roll:


http://www.sciencemag.org/content/295/5563/2215.full

Is all I could(I didn't look very so that could be it), it you are using a concept that I am unfamiliar with source it.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state;
for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.


Not applicable because the womb is at a constant temperature, however the child does generate body heat from its metabolism so it would still pass this test.

2. Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

Passes this test.

3. Metabolism: Transformation of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolisms). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Passes this test.

4. 4.Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of anabolism than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

Passes this test.

5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.

Passes this test.

6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of multicellular organisms. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and by chemotaxis.

People have tried to paint the child's responses to just reflexes but there is a response even then.

7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new individual organisms, either asexually from a single parent organism, or sexually from two parent organisms.

Child will be able to able to engage in actions that cause reproduction upon reaching puberty to adulthood. So it passes this test.

So the child in the womb is alive and definately human, looks like there is one argument that pro-Abortion people have lost.



ryan93
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20 Mar 2011, 4:08 pm

Those characteristics are still outdated. 4 and 6 certainly aren't necessary for every conceivable form of life. That list is made by looking at the life around us, and trying to find common denominators. The NASA list is more about what is actually required.

In any case, yes, a fetus is a living thing, but it isn't sentient so I couldn't care less. I kill millions of E.coli everytime I take an antibiotic, so have I just had a genocide in my intestine? Or the worlds largest abortion?

edit; actually, if we are taking such a heuristic approach to defining life, why don't we do the same for a fetus? It doesn't look like us, it can't sing, dance, talk, think to any real degree, it probably isn't conscious in the first trimester, so it's not one of humans!


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Last edited by ryan93 on 20 Mar 2011, 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.