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Come June 10, would you vote for a leftwing secularist above a radical right-libertarian to be WP's Most Strident Atheist given that radical right-libertarian policies lead to low levels of atheism?
I would vote for the leftwing secularist! 55%  55%  [ 18 ]
No, I would vote for the religion helping, self-hating atheist right-libertarian. 15%  15%  [ 5 ]
None of the above 30%  30%  [ 10 ]
Total votes : 33

Awesomelyglorious
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27 Mar 2011, 9:51 pm

In any case, if we are to have a campaign, we need to have moderated debates. That's just that. We can't have rhetoric get in the way of hard rationalism. You know whose rationalism is the most awesome and glorious and hard? Mine. If you really believe in atheism, you need my strong and hard rationality inserted into this campaign. My rationality will make you feel good, and it accepting it is just another step to a better world.



01001011
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28 Mar 2011, 8:05 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
In any case, if we are to have a campaign, we need to have moderated debates. That's just that. We can't have rhetoric get in the way of hard rationalism. You know whose rationalism is the most awesome and glorious and hard? Mine. If you really believe in atheism, you need my strong and hard rationality inserted into this campaign. My rationality will make you feel good, and it accepting it is just another step to a better world.


That is just false. You are incompetent in delivering a knock out blow to apologists. I can.

Evidence: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt143014.html



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28 Mar 2011, 9:11 am

Orwell wrote:
that should be 30, not 20.


And now I feel old.


Could just be that it's Monday. :P


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28 Mar 2011, 9:24 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
We can't have rhetoric get in the way of hard rationalism.


I disagree. The enemy we fight fights with rhetoric first and as its primary source of power and control. While the rationalism should be protected, the rhetoric needs to be finely tuned and turned louder at appropriate times while softer when necessary.


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Fuzzy
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28 Mar 2011, 10:15 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
In any case, if we are to have a campaign, we need to have moderated debates. That's just that. We can't have rhetoric get in the way of hard rationalism. You know whose rationalism is the most awesome and glorious and hard? Mine. If you really believe in atheism, you need my strong and hard rationality inserted into this campaign. My rationality will make you feel good, and it accepting it is just another step to a better world.


Talking dirty to me wont get you my vote. And your rationalism needs a prophylactic.


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Awesomelyglorious
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28 Mar 2011, 11:39 am

Fuzzy wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
In any case, if we are to have a campaign, we need to have moderated debates. That's just that. We can't have rhetoric get in the way of hard rationalism. You know whose rationalism is the most awesome and glorious and hard? Mine. If you really believe in atheism, you need my strong and hard rationality inserted into this campaign. My rationality will make you feel good, and it accepting it is just another step to a better world.


Talking dirty to me wont get you my vote. And your rationalism needs a prophylactic.

HA HA HA HA HA! I am glad someone got the joke.



Awesomelyglorious
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28 Mar 2011, 11:43 am

skafather84 wrote:
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
We can't have rhetoric get in the way of hard rationalism.


I disagree. The enemy we fight fights with rhetoric first and as its primary source of power and control. While the rationalism should be protected, the rhetoric needs to be finely tuned and turned louder at appropriate times while softer when necessary.

Actually you don't. I said "get in the way of". Secondly, that statement that you are protesting on grounds of the value of rhetoric is actually a very very rhetorically loaded statement, in fact, often statements attacking rhetoric are laced with rhetoric, and really just done on behalf of promoting a virtue.



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28 Mar 2011, 11:56 am

01001011 wrote:
That is just false. You are incompetent in delivering a knock out blow to apologists. I can.

Evidence: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt143014.html

Yes, a debate against 91, a man who is defiant to even logic itself, is really good evidence of my lack of talent. Seriously, he's disputed textbook logic, taking multiple pages where multiple posters pointed out that his claims disagreed with standard textbooks on the matter. The fact that I can take the time to deal with the endless waves of inanity show that I deserve a medal for patience.

Even further, in that thread, there is no real sign of you showing much ability to deal a knock-out blow. Maybe you disagree, but seriously, I have seen no sign that you have the great counter-apologetics skills you think you do.



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28 Mar 2011, 12:04 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
often statements attacking rhetoric are laced with rhetoric, and really just done on behalf of promoting a virtue.


A tactic that one must be familiar with and proficient in.


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01001011
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29 Mar 2011, 7:35 am

Every apologist is defiant to logic and evidence to some extend. It is naive to think that one can convince an apologist simply by stating logic. The way to silence an apologist is to convince him he cannot hope to stay in the game by producing more nonsense. It is evident that the same 91 quits debating with me much sooner than with you.



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29 Mar 2011, 11:58 am

01001011 wrote:
Every apologist is defiant to logic and evidence to some extend. It is naive to think that one can convince an apologist simply by stating logic. The way to silence an apologist is to convince him he cannot hope to stay in the game by producing more nonsense. It is evident that the same 91 quits debating with me much sooner than with you.

I would have to actually agree with his criticisms of your method. Your focus on rigor is unrealistic for the average conception, as while it may be true that everything can be stated in analytic terms, it is not true that in order for a position to be valid, it has to be stated in analytic terms. Even further, a lot of these arguments HAVE BEEN, just that 91 wasn't going to cut and paste an entire analytic argument. Secondly, a lot of your criticisms do go back go an infinite regress.

Even further, 91 himself recognized that I, unlike you, was acting from a standpoint of familiarity with the issue.
91 wrote:
I would be cautious on commenting on the way that AG takes on the debate, he has shown a large degree of familiarity with the subject matter. He does not make the mistake of assuming that the other side's contentions are unfounded, he just concludes that they are wrong.

The arguments I am putting forward have been subject to the peer-review process attacking the underlying definitions is a risky proposition since you are assuming they cannot be justified.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf144289-0-150.html

Note, let's be fair to myself, I think that his position is intellectually unjustified. I even provided a logical disproof of his notion of God using very basic premises.(this is where he began to question logic itself) However, I do agree with him that I clearly know what's going on in the underlying philosophical issues, and that your criticisms are often rather stupid. (Note: I did defend YOUR lack of rigor in a criticism of the cosmological argument if I remember correctly, pointing out that Craig has practically done the same thing in presentation that you were being criticized for, making the criticism overly pedantic.... BUT the degree to which your method DOES seem overly pedantic, or even similar to presuppositionalism in terms of focus on everything starting perfectly analytic isn't something I can get behind)

(It is true though, that 91 doesn't address issues as much as he ought. For instance Waltur was still asking for his perfect pizza, which the ontological argument ought to give us.)



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30 Mar 2011, 8:02 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
01001011 wrote:
Every apologist is defiant to logic and evidence to some extend. It is naive to think that one can convince an apologist simply by stating logic. The way to silence an apologist is to convince him he cannot hope to stay in the game by producing more nonsense. It is evident that the same 91 quits debating with me much sooner than with you.

I would have to actually agree with his criticisms of your method. Your focus on rigor is unrealistic for the average conception, as while it may be true that everything can be stated in analytic terms, it is not true that in order for a position to be valid, it has to be stated in analytic terms. Even further, a lot of these arguments HAVE BEEN, just that 91 wasn't going to cut and paste an entire analytic argument. Secondly, a lot of your criticisms do go back go an infinite regress.


Maybe. but most apologist arguments I know are just attempts to mislead with sloppy definitions. This is especially a problem with traditional books and formal debates because the opponent cannot ask for clarifications in real time. IF the apologist is capable of clearly defining all terms, then we have a clear and fixed target to attack. For example, in the ontological argument, it is impossible to see if being maximally great is logically consistent unless one can define how greatness is measured and compared.

Quote:
Even further, 91 himself recognized that I, unlike you, was acting from a standpoint of familiarity with the issue.
91 wrote:
I would be cautious on commenting on the way that AG takes on the debate, he has shown a large degree of familiarity with the subject matter. He does not make the mistake of assuming that the other side's contentions are unfounded, he just concludes that they are wrong.

The arguments I am putting forward have been subject to the peer-review process attacking the underlying definitions is a risky proposition since you are assuming they cannot be justified.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf144289-0-150.html


I admit your greater knowledge of the literature, but so is 91. He knows your objections before you write, and he knows what to respond. The progress of these exchanges is almost predictable. In your quote, he has the bundle to provide a well defined proof, and he fails. His comment is nothing more than a rant that I don't play by the book.

Quote:
Note, let's be fair to myself, I think that his position is intellectually unjustified. I even provided a logical disproof of his notion of God using very basic premises.(this is where he began to question logic itself)

I think I missed that part.

Quote:
However, I do agree with him that I clearly know what's going on in the underlying philosophical issues, and that your criticisms are often rather stupid.


In what way? Because my criticism does not appear in standard textbooks?

Quote:
(Note: I did defend YOUR lack of rigor in a criticism of the cosmological argument if I remember correctly, pointing out that Craig has practically done the same thing in presentation that you were being criticized for, making the criticism overly pedantic.... BUT the degree to which your method DOES seem overly pedantic, or even similar to presuppositionalism in terms of focus on everything starting perfectly analytic isn't something I can get behind)

(It is true though, that 91 doesn't address issues as much as he ought. For instance Waltur was still asking for his perfect pizza, which the ontological argument ought to give us.)

OK I must thank you for that.



Awesomelyglorious
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30 Mar 2011, 12:00 pm

01001011 wrote:
Maybe. but most apologist arguments I know are just attempts to mislead with sloppy definitions. This is especially a problem with traditional books and formal debates because the opponent cannot ask for clarifications in real time. IF the apologist is capable of clearly defining all terms, then we have a clear and fixed target to attack. For example, in the ontological argument, it is impossible to see if being maximally great is logically consistent unless one can define how greatness is measured and compared.

The problem is that this kind of definition isn't how most things work in practice ANYWAY. Especially given that a lot of these worldview issues can get massive. I don't think most apologetic arguments are just efforts to mislead though, they are real arguments that have questionable validity. 91 was actually trying to cite peer-reviewed philosophy. He might not have understood it(beyond my ability to comment on) but it isn't as if this is all a sham here.

Some ontological arguments DO define these terms better. Plantinga's modal effort is more defined. Anselm's imagination argument assumes that there is an ordered scale of greatness that we can all intuitively refer back to, but that doesn't make it NECESSARILY invalid.

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I admit your greater knowledge of the literature, but so is 91. He knows your objections before you write, and he knows what to respond. The progress of these exchanges is almost predictable. In your quote, he has the bundle to provide a well defined proof, and he fails. His comment is nothing more than a rant that I don't play by the book. [/quote[
I agree that his efforts are failures

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I think I missed that part.

It was another thread on God and the Best of All Possible worlds a bit later. I provided a deductive argument, and all the theists gave were relatively unpersuasive criticisms, about how this MIGHT BE the best of all possible worlds. I can't find it because I lack time right now, but I know that some other posters likely know about it. Ruveyn actually mentioned to 91 that his claims defied textbook logic. Orwell spent a lot of time trying to get 91 to actually understand what was basic logic.

Quote:
In what way? Because my criticism does not appear in standard textbooks?

Well, some of them ARE standard. I mean, the issue on spontaneous generation in physics was cited by Stenger against Craig. However, definitional issues are often a questionable direction to go if things are being developed in analytic philosphy. An ideal argument in analytical philosophy can be expressed in symbolic logic, and some iteration of all of 91's arguments have been expressed in highly mathematical terms, I am certain.

Quote:
OK I must thank you for that.

Well, I try to be fair if I can. Waltur's great pizza is a well-known and completely powerful objection to ontological arguments. ALL OF THEM fail that standard. Also, it is entirely true that the last steps of how the cosmological argument makes sense are generally not emphasized and that the argument gets REALLY REALLY weak at that point. (Timeless mind? Seriously???)



01001011
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04 Apr 2011, 9:59 am

A vague 'argument' is just gibberish. It is not even possible to say if it is sound or not. One trick of apologetic is to equivocate terms so while each proposition look reasonable, the whole argument fails when all terms are analyzed and compared. I explained how Plantinga's modal effort fails in another thread.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3520048.html#3520048



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04 Apr 2011, 11:29 am

01001011 wrote:
A vague 'argument' is just gibberish. It is not even possible to say if it is sound or not. One trick of apologetic is to equivocate terms so while each proposition look reasonable, the whole argument fails when all terms are analyzed and compared. I explained how Plantinga's modal effort fails in another thread.
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp3520048.html#3520048

The problem is that you attacked the much logically sounder elements of Plantinga's argument, y'know, the parts that are less disputed. Plantinga is clearly vulnerable to Gaunillo's island objections, but efforts to attack the modal framework do not seem to be as clear as failures.



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19 Apr 2011, 8:49 am

I see here that Fnord has been unbanned. If nominations are still being accepted, he should be considered.


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