26 Apr 2011, 6:29 am
Zionism is not judeaism. It is an ethnic nationalist movement no different than the nazis were. Blood nationalism (ie defining the greator we by virtue of having the right ancestors) leads men down a one way path to do the most horrible things they are capable of.
Jews and Arabs have lived together for thousands of years. In fact there are arab jews.
I would argue that if u rounded up 6 random palistinians and 6 random israiles and put them all in a room there could be a viable peace in hours. Unfourtuntly both sides are blocked by their leaders.
26 Apr 2011, 11:14 am
Zionism, at least according to the Zionists I've spoken to, revolves around the premise that the world was, and still is, a dangerous place for Jews, and the only way of ensuring Jewish safety is a strong Jewish-majority nation. The validity of this premise is certainly debatable, but it is what a lot of Israelis and diaspora Jews believe, and it colors their responses to the Palestinians and the rest of the world.
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26 Apr 2011, 12:59 pm
Consider how many Jews have been targeted and killed by Muslim terrorists.
Attitudes toward Jews could change in a thrice, even in more civilized parts of the world. In 1920 Jews were doing fine in Germany. In the mid 1940 s their ashes were going up chimneys.
As long as Jews deny the essential idolatry of their Gentile neighbors they are in potential or actual danger. The only way for Jews to be "safe" is to cease to exist as a distinct and identifiable people.
ruveyn
26 Apr 2011, 2:54 pm
The suggestion that Zionism is no longer relevant in the 21st century falls into two traps, I suggest.
The first is the trap of suggesting that the lot of Jews in the contemporary world is defined by the lot of Jews in North America. It is true that the worst that most of us have to fear in Canada or the United States is vandalism of our synagogues, our cemeteries and our community centres. I suppose if we consider spraypainting swastikas onto the walls of our public institutions to be socially acceptable behaviour, then perhaps we, in North America, have nothing to complain about.[/sarcasm]
But the reality is that Jews are found the world over, and many of them in countries in which diversity is not celebrated or even tolerated. We are a closed population (by and large you are born a Jew, converts are exceptional, especially outside North America), we have two distinct languages shared by no other group, and we have a body of cultural practice that is shared by no other group.
The only nation in which Jews are not set apart from a larger (and sometimes hegemonistic) population is Israel.
The second trap is the misprison that Israel is a "Jewish" state. While it is true that the Law of Return is a public law of unique benefit to Jews (although about 300,000 people who have benefitted are legally gentiles because they did not have Jewish mothers), the reality of Israel is that it is a secular, pluralist, Parliamentary democracy. Arab political parties are elected and serve in the Knesset, Arabs serve in the public service and the armed forces. Arabs own property and control capital. Arabic is one of Israel's two official languages. No Arab state has ever extended similar rights to its Jewish minority.
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MarketAndChurch
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26 Apr 2011, 3:37 pm
It is all of those things but it is still a jewish state... they are not counter to each other unless they specifically outlaw non-jews from this state.
Funny thing with the Knesset... they can get up and be as critical of Israel in parliament as the editorials of The Nation or TheNewYorkTimes is of America, and go home safely without worry of a jew waiting to blow him up outside. Which is fine(their critique that is)... I only bring that up that because a non-muslim could not do that in any other muslim country in the middle east. If not arrested and tortured legally, he and his family would face threats or even death. Arabs are freer in Israel then in any other muslim country in the middle-east.
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MarketAndChurch
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26 Apr 2011, 3:47 pm
Jews and Arabs have lived together for thousands of years. In fact there are arab jews.
I would argue that if u rounded up 6 random palistinians and 6 random israiles and put them all in a room there could be a viable peace in hours. Unfourtuntly both sides are blocked by their leaders.
No one deny's that there are arab-jews...
It would be safer for a Jew to be in Muslim lands during the crusades. It would be safer for a Jew to be in America today then it would be for them in the Muslim Middle East and, in some ways, Europe.
It changes on circumstance and the beliefs that are held by the populace at that current time... so you can't cite a Muslim-Jewish relationship a thousand years ago as if by osmosis, these conditions can be passed down to the muslims alive today. There is a pervading and self-defeating view in the Muslim Arab world to dump on Israel for all of their problems. This is as true in Egypt as it is in Iran, and unless they can get rid of this toxic mindset and embrace progress and secularism, and tolerance for other religions, there is no hope for Muslims being peaceful with the state of Israel.
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Last edited by MarketAndChurch on 26 Apr 2011, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DevilInPgh
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26 Apr 2011, 3:49 pm
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... d-for.html
(crossposted at the Sefardi/Mizrachi blog Jewish Refugees: Point of No Return: http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com )
Today's comes from The encyclopædia of missions: descriptive, historical, biographical, statistical, Volume 1, published in 1891, meant as a reference for Christian missionaries in far-flung places.
It says, in the entry on Alexandria, Egypt:
Here's what happened then:
Must have been those Zionists.
And continuing into today, with Tunisia's revolution (and subsequent hijacking by Islamist parties?):
http://www.minnpost.com/globalpost/2011 ... day_exodus
By Jon Jensen
DJERBA, Tunisia — As Jews around the world celebrate the Passover holiday this week, which commemorates the Biblical migration of the Israelites from ancient Egypt, some in Tunisia’s Jewish minority are considering their own modern-day exodus.
In the three months since the ouster of former strongman President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali, Tunisia’s interim government has struggled to reinstate normalcy in this once prosperous Mediterranean nation.
For some in Djerba’s small Jewish community, many of whom work in the tourism industry, the financial uncertainty is becoming too much to bear. The long absence of security on the streets in Tunisia seems to have scared away many foreigners and their vital tourist dollars, a large component of the country’s economy. Most European tourists came for the whitewashed, dome-topped bazaars and lavish five-star hotels dotting the desert landscape on this resort island.
And with the conflict worsening next door in Libya — just a short drive from Djerba’s sunny beaches — Tunisia’s already battered tourism sector has largely dried up.
“I have only seen one customer all week long,” said Haddad Sion, the owner of a gold shop in Houmt Souq, the largest city in Djerba. “If business continues as is, I will have no choice but to leave, either to go to Paris or Jerusalem.”
Djerba has long been home to one of the oldest and largest communities of Jews in North Africa. Their numbers have dwindled to about 1,500 over the past 50 years — only a tiny fraction compared to Tunisia’s nearly 10 million Muslim residents. At its peak in the 1950s, Tunisia's Jewish population numbered about 100,000, according to sociologist Claude Sitbon.
Djerba’s Jews have long coexisted peacefully with their Muslim neighbors, working side-by-side in the narrow alleyways of the old market in Houmt Souq that is now largely deserted.
Today, with secular Ben Ali out of the picture, Tunisia’s once-banned Islamists are making a political comeback – to the dismay of many of Djerba’s Jews.
“Ben Ali was good for the Jewish people,” said Daniel Sayada, a jeweler in Houmt Souq. “Since the revolution, being a Muslim is coming back in fashion. And I’m very uncertain on whether this is a good thing for us.”
The Islamist al-Nahda, or renaissance, movement has registered to form a political party and announced their intentions to compete in parliamentary elections scheduled for later this summer. Al-Nahda members have argued that freedom and democracy in post-revolution Tunisia means that all political parties should have the chance to compete freely.
Still, some Jews here are fearful that Islamist leadership would drastically alter the laws in the secular North African state. “We’re definitely scared about the idea of what a takeover by Al-Nahda would look like. I worry that many things here would change,” said Gabriel Attea, who has already moved his family from Djerba to Paris.
For Jews hoping to leave, Israel’s government is trying to make things easier. After Tunisia's revolution, Tel Aviv [sic, should be Jerusalem] offered several financial incentives toward the immigration of any Jews living in Tunisia, citing the economic hardships facing Jews in the post-Ben Ali era. Local Israeli news reports also noted Tunisia’s increasing “Islamization” and the growing potential for anti-Semitism.
Tunisia’s interim government blasted Israel’s attempt to “to tarnish the image of post-Revolution Tunisia and arouse suspicions about the country's security, its economy and stability," according to Tunisia’s official TAP news agency.
But the option to emigrate may be resonating with some in Djerba. “We are scared here. There’s just not enough security,” said Haddad, the gold vendor. “I fear an Islamist government that would try to change everything in Tunisia.”
Not of Djerba's Jews are so worried about the future. Mikhail Madar, a rabbi-turned baker, runs one of Djerba’s largest bakeries for handmade matzo, a cracker-like flat bread eaten during the Jewish Passover holiday. Even though his brother has already left Tunisia for Israel, Madar said he would never leave Djerba: “This island has always been my home for centuries and will continue to be my home.”
26 Apr 2011, 5:49 pm
i feel no pain for those who can afford to flee hardship rather than be doomed to it by circumstance beyond their control. (in response to prior Tunisia rant)
When it comes to the notion of ethnic nationalism there is one book that summarized its ideals completely. The book was called Mien Camp (or whatever) if you replace the words volk and jew with the "us and them" of any particular situation you find that the arguments become the same. Hitler sold genocide as an act of self defense (to preserve the purity of the "nation") this is the same argument that every ethnic nationalist movement makes. It is by defining ourselves as subsets of the global we that we create divisions amongst ourselves.
Can a Jew achieve any less in life if he is born in Baltimore than Bethlehem?
It is by treating all of our brothers and sisters (even them contemptible NTs ) as equals that we all gain the ability to become the most that we can.
26 Apr 2011, 5:52 pm
Consider how many Jews have been targeted and killed by Muslim terrorists.
Attitudes toward Jews could change in a thrice, even in more civilized parts of the world. In 1920 Jews were doing fine in Germany. In the mid 1940 s their ashes were going up chimneys.
As long as Jews deny the essential idolatry of their Gentile neighbors they are in potential or actual danger. The only way for Jews to be "safe" is to cease to exist as a distinct and identifiable people.
ruveyn
you're the same guy who keeps saying that "the Jews of the Diaspora are safer than the Jews of Israel" which you say is because of the demographic trends which guarantee that the arabs will outnumber the jews in Israel and thus in the long run will doom Israel.
If the lifeboat is leakier than the ship then what use is the lifeboat?
If Israel is more dangerous than the diaspora then what is the point of zionism and the existance of Israel?
26 Apr 2011, 5:54 pm
you're the same guy who keeps saying that "the Jews of the Diaspora are safer than the Jews of Israel" which you say is because of the demographic trends which guarantee that the arabs will outnumber the jews in Israel and thus in the long run will doom Israel.
If the lifeboat is leakier than the ship then what use is the lifeboat?
If Israel is more dangerous than the diaspora then what is the point of zionism and the existance of Israel?
Israel can be wiped out in a day. The Jews in dispersion cannot be eliminated so easily.
The situation is lots of eggs in one little basket.
ruveyn
26 Apr 2011, 8:31 pm
The situation is lots of eggs in one little basket.
ruveyn
I think it's worth pointing out that the diaspora offered very little protection from historical systemic antisemitism. In fact, its decentralized and dispersed nature means that under such circumstances, Jews would not be in a position to mount any real resistance. The idea behind a Jewish state would be to counter this vulnerability by providing a place of refuge for Jews fleeing persecution (as with the Misrahi (eastern) jews who fled to Israel in the 40's, 50's, and 60's) and by maintaining a strong military to deter attempts to dislodge or otherwise attack the Jews seeking refuge there.
Fundamentally, I think the outcome of any analysis of which is safer, diaspora or collection, depends on your view of worldwide attitudes towards Jews. If you believe that anti-Semitism is rampant and endemic, a Jewish state will appear safer. If you believe that Jews are by-and-large treated with tolerance and respect, the diaspora will appear safer.
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26 Apr 2011, 9:25 pm
this explains my view of jewish history
[youtube]http://youtu.be/34atu3WGUgc[/youtube]
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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
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26 Apr 2011, 9:42 pm
For 6 years i lived next door to an israeli-born jew of eastern european descent. An immigrant with a green card and a citizenship application in the works.
He told me that he thinks his friends and family back in Haifa are crazy for wanting to live in a war zone, and told me that he can't see how it could possibly be worth it.
26 Apr 2011, 9:58 pm
He told me that he thinks his friends and family back in Haifa are crazy for wanting to live in a war zone, and told me that he can't see how it could possibly be worth it.
its not.
My family made aliyot and came back down when I was a kid.
myy mother is crazy but she is not that crazy.
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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
