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AceOfSpades
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04 Jul 2011, 4:56 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:
Oh dear, another game of soggy biscuit over firearms... :roll: what exactly has it to do with PPR?

peace j
I'm surprised you haven't been banned yet with all the flame baiting you've brought into PPR.


'Flame baiting' = opinion I can't tolerate or repudiate
Have you added anything relevant to the discussion of guns with your two cents? Nope you just bash people for doing so for no other purpose than to provoke a reaction which makes it flame baiting.

RedHanrahan wrote:
... Feel free to take it to the moderators but remember it every time you join in a little dumping session on others and your questionable 'location' surely the implied 'anal rape' is inappropriate as an attachment to all your posts outside of the adults forum?
"Behind you waiting for the soap to drop" leaves enough room for the imagination to keep the kids guessing lulz.



HerrGrimm
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04 Jul 2011, 4:59 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
'Flame baiting' = opinion I can't tolerate or repudiate... Feel free to take it to the moderators but remember it every time you join in a little dumping session on others and your questionable 'location' surely the implied 'anal rape' is inappropriate as an attachment to all your posts outside of the adults forum?


For someone who keeps saying his opinion is being suppressed or attacked, you sure have a habit of telling people what they can or cannot talk about, or what they can participate in throughout the PPR.


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RedHanrahan
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04 Jul 2011, 5:04 pm

I never said what people can or can not do I merely questioned the validity of a little chat about the effectiveness or usefullness of certain firearms over other certain firearms in regards to discussion of Philosophy, Politics or Religion :roll:

Like I said take it to the mods but given various track records around here and the various precedents set I don't think they will care.

peace j


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HerrGrimm
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04 Jul 2011, 5:07 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
I never said what people can or can not do I merely questioned the validity of a little chat about the effectiveness or usefullness of certain firearms over other certain firearms in regards to discussion of Philosophy, Politics or Religion :roll:

Like I said take it to the mods but given various track records around here and the various precedents set I don't think they will care.

peace j


You told me at least twice that I was a child and should not participate in a thread. This is just by personal experience, who knows who else you did it to.

And the moderators will listen to people who bring complaints forward regardless of who they come from. That is their job after all.

Actually, you brought up something interesting: what is my track record, by the way? I mean, why won't the moderators care if I bring forward a complaint? If this can actually happen of course.


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RedHanrahan
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04 Jul 2011, 5:24 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:
I never said what people can or can not do I merely questioned the validity of a little chat about the effectiveness or usefullness of certain firearms over other certain firearms in regards to discussion of Philosophy, Politics or Religion :roll:

Like I said take it to the mods but given various track records around here and the various precedents set I don't think they will care.

peace j


You told me at least twice that I was a child and should not participate in a thread. This is just by personal experience, who knows who else you did it to.

And the moderators will listen to people who bring complaints forward regardless of who they come from.

Actually, you brought up something interesting: what is my track record, by the way? I mean, why won't the moderators care if I bring forward a complaint? If this can actually happen of course.


Go for it, I was meaning track records in general I don't think they will ban me if they haven't banned people who proposed genocide as a solution or made racist slurs against people.

As for telling you to go away little boy, don't take it so literally, I was brushing you off in an insulting way for effect, you are completely free to participate as I am completely free to dismiss you as irrelevant when you make juvenile comments that have nothing to do with the discussion like 'I win' come on, how grown up is that?

Why don't you accept that there is a world outside the gun loving US and that it contains people who are different and hold different opinions and posistions to you and get over yourself - talk about precious and over sensitive :roll:

We are out here and we outnumber you, we are just as valid and have just the same basic rights and if some of us find elements of eachothers or your culture and governmental policy distasteful we have that right. If some of us understand what it is to give each other a little razzing occaisionally and you don't, well that is your problem. Jeeze I wouldn't want to see you in a room full of Aussies and Kiwi's you would wilt like a delicate flower in the glare of the desert sun.

Like I said don't be so precious and get over yourself, peace j


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HerrGrimm
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04 Jul 2011, 5:43 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Go for it, I was meaning track records in general I don't think they will ban me if they haven't banned people who proposed genocide as a solution or made racist slurs against people.


No, they ban people for racist slurs. Maybe they did not see it. Trust me on that one.

RedHanrahan wrote:
As for telling you to go away little boy, don't take it so literally, I was brushing you off in an insulting way for effect, you are completely free to participate as I am completely free to dismiss you as irrelevant when you make juvenile comments that have nothing to do with the discussion like 'I win' come on, how grown up is that?


I am only saying 'I win' to you; the comments you make about me are so outlandish I do not even need to defend them. People that know me on the PPR brush them off. I keep trying to tell you this, but I am not getting the message through I guess, so I have to explain below. It is also refreshing that you try to insult people for making some remarks you do not like.

RedHanrahan wrote:
Why don't you accept that there is a world outside the gun loving US and that it contains people who are different and hold different opinions and posistions to you and get over yourself - talk about precious and over sensitive :roll:


Which again is false. I have put more foreign and multicultural videos all over this website than maybe anyone else outside of music videos. You branding me a gun lover because I had the audacity to talk to Raptor on that one thread you introduced yourself. I have never even said I owned a gun or fired one.

In fact, I believe I talk more to people in the United Kingdom and Canada than in America. You just do not see the PMs.

RedHanrahan wrote:
If some of us understand what it is to give each other a little razzing occaisionally and you don't, well that is your problem. Jeeze I wouldn't want to see you in a room full of Aussies and Kiwi's you would wilt like a delicate flower in the glare of the desert sun.


I have talked to numerous Australians on message boards, and some here. You are not razzing at all. You are deliberately being malicious with your speech. They are not like you at all.

I never said I was going to a moderator; I just wanted to know if there was anything stopping them from listening to me. Most of your ad hominems are so useless and comical I want to keep you around :D

End discussion. I will stop derailing the thread, but I will give you the last word out of fairness.


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marshall
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04 Jul 2011, 6:14 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Oh dear, another game of soggy biscuit over firearms... :roll: what exactly has it to do with PPR?

peace j


Oh give the guy a break. Notice it was Zeno not AOS who brought up the topic of guns up. I don't know how you expect someone with AS not to talk about their interest when it's brought to the table.



Zeno
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04 Jul 2011, 7:56 pm

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What? I don't know where you heard that from, but both AK's and M16's are popular choices for rifles among gang bangers. But yeah rifles aren't as concealable or accessible (it's quicker to pull a pistol out from your hip than it is to run to the trunk of your car) so pistols and revolvers are the norm If I needed 7.62x39mm though I can just get an AR-15 upper that fires the cartridge.

I'll take the AR-15's lightweight, DI system, in line stock, moddability, and accuracy over the reliability of the AK-47 any day. .223 is good enough for me as long as I have a barrel that is at least 18 inches long and they're in hollow points. I think a lot of people underestimate the reliability of the AR-15 because its reputation from Vietnam still hasn't died down.

But anyways, I'd still take a TAR-21 over both of em along with an M14 for big game and more firepower where it is needed.


Rifles are not very portable and are certainly not easily concealed like handguns but they are powerful. If you are committing crimes in urban areas, hiding once the deed is done is critical to survival so the criminal set tends to prefer handguns. Rifles like the AK-47 and the M-16 are used by people who do not care or who actually want people to know that they are packing serious heat. Hence, it is usually the highly organized groups like the military, vigilantes or cartels who favor these assault rifles.

Most modern rifles are better than the AK-47 but like I said, they need to be maintained. Anyone who has used an M-16 before would know that it has to be stripped, cleaned and oiled after every use or the firing mechanism is likely to jam the next time you use it. In order to get the combination of power and precision, modern rifles have become very sensitive machines that must be taken care of. You can bury the AK-47 in your backyard, expose it to sun, rain, snow and doggy poo; dig it up months later and it will still fire. For people who are not obsessed about guns and who do not want to ever touch the weapon unless they have to, the AK-47 is ideal.

The whole point of owning a weapon like the AK-47 is not to kill to people but to scare them away or perhaps buy yourself some time to make a getaway. Say you see a gang coming at your house from 300 yards away. A couple of warning shots fired in their direction is unlikely to kill them at that distance because the AK-47 is not accurate enough and you do not have the training. But the sound of gun fire and the impact of bullets on hard surface will instinctively lead them to take cover. They may decide to go somewhere else because of the resistance they encountered or slow down their approach enough so that you and your loved ones can run away.



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04 Jul 2011, 9:19 pm

There are many, many Americans who neither own guns nor have any interest in them.
Not that, in my view, there is anything wrong with law-abiding, responsible adults owning guns. My objection is not to gun ownership, but rather characterizing an entire nation of people as "gun loving" just because their laws allow them the OPTION of owning one.



RedHanrahan
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05 Jul 2011, 4:27 pm

I don't think firearms were the intended topic of the OP here, The concern actually seemed to be food distribution concerns and the impacts of globalisation and IMF/World Bank policies on impoverished and developing nations?

peace j


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AceOfSpades
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06 Jul 2011, 1:47 am

RedHanrahan wrote:
I don't think firearms were the intended topic of the OP here, The concern actually seemed to be food distribution concerns and the impacts of globalisation and IMF/World Bank policies on impoverished and developing nations?

peace j
And the OP himself brought up guns so I think what's considered to be on topic is for him to decide. But hey what do I know? I'm just an uncivilized reactionary black helicopter fearing gun nut. Anyways I haven't commented on anything else in the thread because I don't like speaking on things I'm not knowledgeable about. Once I do some research I might but for now I'm gonna stay in my lane.

Zeno wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
What? I don't know where you heard that from, but both AK's and M16's are popular choices for rifles among gang bangers. But yeah rifles aren't as concealable or accessible (it's quicker to pull a pistol out from your hip than it is to run to the trunk of your car) so pistols and revolvers are the norm If I needed 7.62x39mm though I can just get an AR-15 upper that fires the cartridge.

I'll take the AR-15's lightweight, DI system, in line stock, moddability, and accuracy over the reliability of the AK-47 any day. .223 is good enough for me as long as I have a barrel that is at least 18 inches long and they're in hollow points. I think a lot of people underestimate the reliability of the AR-15 because its reputation from Vietnam still hasn't died down.

But anyways, I'd still take a TAR-21 over both of em along with an M14 for big game and more firepower where it is needed.


Rifles are not very portable and are certainly not easily concealed like handguns but they are powerful. If you are committing crimes in urban areas, hiding once the deed is done is critical to survival so the criminal set tends to prefer handguns. Rifles like the AK-47 and the M-16 are used by people who do not care or who actually want people to know that they are packing serious heat. Hence, it is usually the highly organized groups like the military, vigilantes or cartels who favor these assault rifles.

Most modern rifles are better than the AK-47 but like I said, they need to be maintained. Anyone who has used an M-16 before would know that it has to be stripped, cleaned and oiled after every use or the firing mechanism is likely to jam the next time you use it. In order to get the combination of power and precision, modern rifles have become very sensitive machines that must be taken care of. You can bury the AK-47 in your backyard, expose it to sun, rain, snow and doggy poo; dig it up months later and it will still fire. For people who are not obsessed about guns and who do not want to ever touch the weapon unless they have to, the AK-47 is ideal.

The whole point of owning a weapon like the AK-47 is not to kill to people but to scare them away or perhaps buy yourself some time to make a getaway. Say you see a gang coming at your house from 300 yards away. A couple of warning shots fired in their direction is unlikely to kill them at that distance because the AK-47 is not accurate enough and you do not have the training. But the sound of gun fire and the impact of bullets on hard surface will instinctively lead them to take cover. They may decide to go somewhere else because of the resistance they encountered or slow down their approach enough so that you and your loved ones can run away.
It takes 5 minutes to get dirt off the bolt and carrier, the bore, the outside of the weapons and to lube it so it's not all that high maintenance. Well you could do it more thoroughly, but it isn't really necessary and overdoing it can actually be detrimental since it can cause wear. You don't need to do it after every time you use it since it doesn't turn into a jamamatic if it is anything short of squeaky clean. You mainly need to worry about dirt in the tolerances and lubing it here and there, carbon build up isn't the main culprit of unreliability. I'd say you would need to clean it after every 2000 rounds.

Although the DI system can cause faster wear since all the heat goes straight to the bolt, rifles aren't designed for extended periods of firing anyways so I'm fine with that. Well actually the AK-47 is but that's because it was designed to suit Soviet tactics (wave attacks + spray and pray) and logistics (mass production + foolproof operation). It is more like a machine gun than a rifle and it was made like this for numerous reasons. I'm not too fond of the AK since its only selling point is its reliability. It isn't very accurate and it fires an intermediate cartridge which is a jack of all trades.

I'd shoot to kill if I had to engage in longer ranges so I won't have to worry about them coming for me later, especially in the event of a SHTF situation where law and order breaks down. But most of the time it's gonna involve close up shooting around my area which is why the TAR-21 would be my main gun in a hypothetical SHTF situation. Who knows though, maybe I'll just be on the rooftop with an M14 picking off those who don't tread lightly into my neighbourhood.



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06 Jul 2011, 6:36 am

Guns are not the intended topic though ownership of serviceable weapon is widely thought to be vital if the SHTF. If you look at that National Geographic video on preppers, practically everyone who believes in preparing for impending social breakdown owns guns. There was even this soccer-mom who was filmed taking her kids to the local range to squeeze off a few rounds.

The topic I am interested in discussing is when, why and how a breakdown of social order will occur. When I started the original thread in June 2009, which was deleted because I voiced my support for Mexican immigrants one too many times, no one thought it was at all plausible that anything bad could happen. In the 2 years since, there has been a very dramatic shift in the way people think and the worries are now so palpable that the vibes are seeping into mainstream media.

While I do continue to support Mexicans who strive for a better life, it must be said that the very large population of illegal immigrants in the United States now pose a clear and present danger to the country. As workers who are undocumented and thus have no rights much less privileges, the economic downturn has been crushing for the community. If the current situation drags on, these people may very well explode.



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10 Jul 2011, 9:32 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/11/busin ... overy.html

Meant to excite pity as a way to further a political agenda that is dressed up as the "correct" economic policy to pursue, this article encapsulates much of the problems that has come to dog American discourse on how the never ending crisis is to be dealt with. Only in the United States is $15.30 an hour for a clerical job possible. The going rate for a similar position elsewhere in the developed world is probably at most a third of that. And yet no one has ever questioned the excessive compensation which American workers demand and receive. It is universally accepted that high pay for all is a good thing even if it is to be achieved at the expense of the republic's fiscal foundation.

Sooner or later, the benefits will run out. When these people realize what poverty really means, they will get angry and the riots will begin.



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11 Jul 2011, 12:48 am

AceOfSpades wrote:
marshall wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
But anyways, I'd still take a TAR-21 over both of em along with an M14 for big game and more firepower where it is needed.

I don't know much about guns but I was under the impression that all legal civilian rifles are only semi-automatic. If you can't use automatic bursts or continuous suppressive fire, then might as well go with something that has a more powerful and accurate single shot.
Well the .223 is good enough for me when it comes to stopping power. Hollow points and a barrel that is at least 18 inches long will ensure that it has enough velocity to fragment at longer ranges. The main reason I prefer a TAR-21 is because its bullpup design allows it to have an 18 inch barrel and a shorter overall length so it has the high velocity as well as the compactness. It is ergonomic, well balanced in terms of weight distribution, lightweight, reliable and accurate so it kicks the asses of both AKs and AR-15s imo since it has the best of both worlds plus the bullpup design which has been implemented excellently.

I'm just not too fond of the 7.62x39mm since it has neither high power nor high velocity. So if I want to go for something more powerful, I would much rather go balls deep and get a .308. Also, suppressing fire can still be done with semi auto. It doesn't cover an area as quickly, but I am most likely gonna lay down suppressing fire towards an area that isn't too covered or concealed so I think semi-auto would be good enough. I know a dude who has been to Afghanistan and semi auto is also used there for suppressing fire.

A .308 is going to be excessive in a residential area most of the time unless you have to stop a car or someone heavily barricaded, which in most scenarios would be illegal in most states. The 7.62x39 is really good at the close ranges that most clean cases of self defense happen at, and you can get hollow points for it that work really well too! If you need a higher power service cartridge, use a .30-06 and a semiauto chambered for it. You can use a bigger variety of loads (except finding recipes for subsonic loads can be a problem), you can load it a lot hotter and with heavier loads if you need to, and it doesn't sell out as easy when something comes up that causes panic buying of ammo. You can make light varmint loads that won't overpenetrate, you could make super heavy and powerful loads that you could take black or brown bear hunting, or smash a hole through an unreinforced block wall (even with a lead core FMJ bullet). Russian 7.62x54R is also effective and plentiful (cold war stocks aren't likely to run out anytime soon) and even the semiauto rifles are relatively cheap.

Be careful about using .223 hollowpoints. The bleed energy rapidly and they may lack sufficient penetration due to their light weight. Using heavier hunting ammo would be good or use 55 grain M193. In soft tissue it tumbles and shreds. It's fairly lawyer proof since it is a FMJ and it's approved under the Geneva convention.


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11 Jul 2011, 8:14 am

$15 per hour in the States is equal to $5 per hour in a country where the price of most everything is significantly less. In countries where clerks make $5 per hour, bread doesn't cost $2.
Also, the U.S. has a healthcare crisis. For those whose employers don't provide insurance, that alone will cost about $1000 per month, per family member. And even with insurance, most people end up with co-pays and deductibles that make any illness a potential financial crisis. And did I mention that American employers are not required to pay for ANY sick days, or ANY time off for childbirth?