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Master_Pedant
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17 Jun 2011, 3:21 pm

Okay, last night - amidst a discussion of how screwed the earth would be if the moon started hurling towards it - I commented on how a planet crashing into earth led to the moon (as some of the debris gathered in space to form the moon). Well, this person, some sort of wishy-washy, "everyone has an equal access to the truth", spiritualist from what I gather said, rather sternly "How do They Know That?!" Then followed with some rather disconnected assertion about how "NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT AND NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT THE UNIVERSE WASN'T CREATED!"

My main thoughts? WTF??! !!

Where the hell do people get this perverted idea that because there's some uncertainty or doubt regarding some issue that automatically means anything goes? I mean, I'm sure it's impossible to prove absolutely that O. J. Simpson killed Nicole, but if because of this lingering possibility of error, the defence attorney argued that Aliens, in fact, conducted the murder and framed O. J., they'd be laughed off the stage (yes, it’s possible to have an even more ridiculous defence then the one the actually got away with).

This particularly unreflective, anti-Impact Hypothesis person almost certainly uses inductive and abductive inferential reasoning in day to day life. If a co-worker told her that he'd walked on the moon half an hour ago and ate its (supposed) cheese exterior, this person wouldn't buy the explanation at all. Even if you can't absolutely disprove that scenario!

So why do so many people infatuated with the prospect of some uncertainty or gap in knowledge go to such moronic lengths as treating it as a free pass? Since nobody knows exactly what happens, anything suddenly goes? Where do unreflective, intellectually lazy, or flat out wilful ignoramuses get such nonsense from?!


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Janissy
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17 Jun 2011, 3:38 pm

Why? Because there's no reason not to. In low stakes situations, such as this conversation, there isn't really any fallout in any direction, no matter what your belief is. Like you noted, this person probably is quite careful to do this only in certain situations and would certainly not do it where the stakes are higher, such as believing that a coworker went to the moon on lunch break. Actually believing that would have various bad consequences.

But in a casual conversation about unresolvable subjects, doing this is really just a form of "blue sky-ing"- throwing out interesting "what if" ideas just for fun. What I mean is...yes, there's a free pass. When discussing things where the outcome of your conversation won't have any impact on real life decisions, there's no reason to stick to strict logic. Throwing logic aside is more fun and interesting. Fun, interesting and illogical is no way to run a company, but it can be a good way to have an animated discussion. Plus it's probably fun for others to get you apoplectic- so there's that payoff.



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17 Jun 2011, 3:41 pm

Because people are stupid, and people are bad at reasoning.


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Philologos
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17 Jun 2011, 3:51 pm

The simplest solution might be to take his wallet, tell him nobody can prove he exists, and walk out or kick him out, depending on where you are.

That is not terribly polite, but there is that in your tone that suggests he was not either.

Of course it is true that thousands of hypotheses and assumptions that were perfectly sound a minute ago are being disproven or drastically modified even as we speak - at least I hope so.

Which if addressed in a reasonable manner you know as well as anybody.

Haec mala sunt cuts both ways. There ARE things I know [in a provisional but strong sense] that you do not, and things you know, I do not doubt, that I do not - at the very least you probably have read the Commonwealth. But the origins of the moon are known at that level to no human, and it is not the act of a scientist or a gentleman [the two are of course not mutually exclusive] to posture as if A's ignorance trumps B's.



Master_Pedant
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17 Jun 2011, 3:51 pm

Janissy wrote:
Why? Because there's no reason not to. In low stakes situations, such as this conversation, there isn't really any fallout in any direction, no matter what your belief is. Like you noted, this person probably is quite careful to do this only in certain situations and would certainly not do it where the stakes are higher, such as believing that a coworker went to the moon on lunch break. Actually believing that would have various bad consequences.

But in a casual conversation about unresolvable subjects, doing this is really just a form of "blue sky-ing"- throwing out interesting "what if" ideas just for fun. What I mean is...yes, there's a free pass. When discussing things where the outcome of your conversation won't have any impact on real life decisions, there's no reason to stick to strict logic. Throwing logic aside is more fun and interesting. Fun, interesting and illogical is no way to run a company, but it can be a good way to have an animated discussion. Plus it's probably fun for others to get you apoplectic- so there's that payoff.


The thing is, I wasn't talking about the improbability of the moon smashing into earth. I mentioned the origin of the moon (according to the Impact Hypothesis) as an interesting sidebar tidbit of information on one of the leading hypotheses in lunar science. Then, just before leaving to go home (this three person conversation occurred in a car), they said "HOW DO THEY KNOW THAT" in a disgustingly Ken Ham like fashion.

Orwell wrote:
Because people are stupid, and people are bad at reasoning.


That misanthropic conclusion still doesn't explain why people would use the same type of reasoning in *every other area of their life with the sole exception of prehistory/religion*. I suppose you can make an argument that reasoning evolved for everyday situations and *abstracting it* into principles to apply to philosophical or scientific questions takes a quite bit of practice.


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ValentineWiggin
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17 Jun 2011, 3:57 pm

People also grossly-confuse "empirical evidence" with "what I done seen happenin' wit my own eye".


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Janissy
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17 Jun 2011, 4:00 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
I suppose you can make an argument that reasoning evolved for everyday situations and *abstracting it* into principles to apply to philosophical or scientific questions takes a quite bit of practice.


I'll go with that. It does take practice and you have to be motivated. A strong motivator is wanting to get things right. Sometimes I care a lot and can get incredibly frustrated with people who are willing to take a more lackadaisical attitude outside of everyday situations. Sometimes I find the rigor to be tiring and I relax into "what if" mode. Since I've toggled back and forth between these two states, I can see the appeal of both sides.



Philologos
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17 Jun 2011, 4:02 pm

It does not actually have to be about religion or politics. I have known very similar unreason [should we in English apply the term "reason" to such propositions as "I will not tell you why I am evicvting you because you will just lie about it"? I am thinking not] - unreason being close here to the German Unsinn - brought out in everyday interpersonal relationships.

I would go along with Orwell on "people are bad at reasoning". It is not natural for most of us, it is counterproductive in many situations.

I would disagree on "people are stupid". Not that I have not, informally, said much the same - usually in the form "people are idiots". But the measure of stupidity until we have a different benchmark because the Xhpilng have landed has to be the midpoint of the race. I have known people WELL above that midpoint who - well, my prime example is the colleague highly intelligent and on good days likable, who rejected my suggestion that he might improve his interpresonal skills on the grounds that I talked to students and was therefore unprofessional.

Yes, that was dumb. But one cannot technically call a multiply peer-reviewed full professor churning out serious work "stupid". Can one?



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17 Jun 2011, 5:54 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Because people are stupid, and people are bad at reasoning.


That misanthropic conclusion still doesn't explain why people would use the same type of reasoning in *every other area of their life with the sole exception of prehistory/religion*. I suppose you can make an argument that reasoning evolved for everyday situations and *abstracting it* into principles to apply to philosophical or scientific questions takes a quite bit of practice.

I may be a misanthrope, but I am not wrong. As far as the difference in application between "everyday situations" and more abstract settings, I think a little further observation should suffice to disabuse you of the assumption that people behave rationally in everyday situations.


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17 Jun 2011, 6:41 pm

It's because belief is largely a pragmatic function of the human brain. There are many cases where accurate beliefs are advantageous in evolutionary terms. However there are other situations where unrealistic thinking may be advantageous.



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17 Jun 2011, 7:05 pm

marshall wrote:
It's because belief is largely a pragmatic function of the human brain. There are many cases where accurate beliefs are advantageous in evolutionary terms. However there are other situations where unrealistic thinking may be advantageous.


Like being junior faculty in a modern university.



Master_Pedant
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17 Jun 2011, 7:15 pm

Orwell wrote:
I may be a misanthrope, but I am not wrong. As far as the difference in application between "everyday situations" and more abstract settings, I think a little further observation should suffice to disabuse you of the assumption that people behave rationally in everyday situations.


So, Orwell, you want me to evaluate your claim using anecdotal evidence??! !

And while "stupid" is a somewhat vague and pretty normative term, I don't think there's any definition of the word that means "less intelligent then the top 10% of the population".


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17 Jun 2011, 7:22 pm

Don't fight with pigs, you will both end dirty , but the pig will enjoy it.


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Awesomelyglorious
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17 Jun 2011, 8:10 pm

Orwell wrote:
Because people are stupid, and people are bad at reasoning.

Correct.



Awesomelyglorious
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17 Jun 2011, 8:13 pm

Orwell wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Because people are stupid, and people are bad at reasoning.


That misanthropic conclusion still doesn't explain why people would use the same type of reasoning in *every other area of their life with the sole exception of prehistory/religion*. I suppose you can make an argument that reasoning evolved for everyday situations and *abstracting it* into principles to apply to philosophical or scientific questions takes a quite bit of practice.

I may be a misanthrope, but I am not wrong. As far as the difference in application between "everyday situations" and more abstract settings, I think a little further observation should suffice to disabuse you of the assumption that people behave rationally in everyday situations.

Half-true.

Yes, people are somewhat unreasonable, but they are not quite *that* bad.

Also, I still hold that "bad at reasoning" works. Other contexts are exactly that, they are other contexts. Often our continuity there depends on other tools besides abstract reasoning. Even further, we do often rely more on unconscious tools than we are aware of, so, we have intuitions that know how to get the right answer in some places, but they don't know how to get the right answer in other places because they are less trained and familiar with those other places. I mean, aspies can be perfectly fine social scientists, but they will still be clutzes at socializing, even if that was their area of study.



Philologos
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17 Jun 2011, 8:17 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Because people are stupid, and people are bad at reasoning.

Correct.


Ah, yes, of course, two Philologos demerits for me and MP for missing the obvious trap.

Orwell does NOT say "All people are stupid", he says "people are stupid", which is ambiguous:

"people as a class are stupid"

OR

"in general people are stupid"

OR

"some people are stupid."

AND since that last option cannot be ruled out as interpretation and is patently true, ya got me.