Why so much hate of Universal health care in the USA?

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Dark_Lord_2008
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27 Jun 2011, 11:02 pm

Religious right hypocrites who do not even read their Bibles oppose Universal health care in the USA. Religious groups and powerful organisations like the Mormons, Jesuits, Church of Latter Day Saints, Evangelicals, Scientology Free Masons, etc, and others have a huge impact on the Republican Party opposition to Universal health care. Raising taxes and more debt to fund increased military instead of spending on public health for all in the USA is in the Republican Big Business Party's DNA.

Conspiracy theories, lies, smear, misinformation and disinformation are spread in the media propaganda to keep people believing that Universal Health care is part of some Communist Red conspiracy.

In Europe, Canada, Israel, NZ and Australia, etc they are all enjoying their Universal health care which benefits the whole nation. A productive workforce and a happy society is a healthy nation. The Americans neo-conservative Big Business corporate leaders do not care at all abouyt the health of the American nation.

European nations predominantly support Universal health care and have more opposition against aggressive military action.



Last edited by Dark_Lord_2008 on 28 Jun 2011, 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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27 Jun 2011, 11:18 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Lene wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Doctors should charge based on your ability to pay.


I tend to agree, I mean its really the least f*cked up way to approach the issue......I mean it should not come down to a pay or die situation at least in my opinion.


I dunno, you already pay extra taxes if you earn more- is it fair to penalise higher-earners over healthcare too?

I would be in favour of free healthcare under a certain wage/unemployed, but I don't think it should be scaled completely.

I quite like the dual system in the UK; you get universal (and yes, flawed) healthcare for free and then you pay to buy private if you don't want to wait. It's not perfect by any means and some people do fall through the cracks, but not as many as if there was no support at all.


Well if taxes in the U.S where spent the way they should be there would be no reason why every citizen cannot have healthcare. Luckily for me my immunity is awesome so I don't get sick, I have never broken bones and tend to be more prone to sprains which are painful but possible to deal with, without medical attention. Oh and I do not trust the mental health approaches used in the medical world so the likely hood of me commiting myself to a psych ward is pretty low. If they force me the state would probably have to pay for it anyways.


Oh I kind of missed some of what you where saying....that actually does sound like a decent idea......for there to be free healthcare for people who are below a certain wage and maybe the option for those who can afford it to do so. The only issue with that I see would be the quality of the free health-care. There are some healthcare options for those who cannot afford it but the quality is minimal.



auntblabby
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03 Jun 2015, 2:08 am

4 years after this particular debate, I can say PPACA is still better than nothing.



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04 Jun 2015, 7:58 am

cave_canem wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Orwell wrote:
Fnord wrote:
but I would not like having to wait months for a surgical procedure to help me stand and walk without pain, or for a panel of non-medical bureaucrats (e.g., "Bean-Counters") to decide whether or not my heart condition was serious enough to warrant invasive surgury when, in their words, "Medication will work just as well".

And is there any reason to believe that a privately-run insurance company will not cause these same problems? Especially given that they already do exactly that?

None at all. I'd just rather work with a corporate bureaucracy (the devil I know) than with a government bureaucracy (the devil I don't know).


Fnord, I live in Canada and have never experienced firsthand, nor have any of my aquaintances, the concerns you have raised.

My American relatives, on the other hand... Some of them cannot even afford the medication they need - even with private insurance. Every time they go to fill a repeat, the co-pay has increased exponentially.

I think a lot of the trouble facing the implementation of universal health care in the US is driven by the media. You hear "horror stories" of what universal health care is like in places like Canada - but if you ask an actual Canadian about their experiences, you'll hear a totally different story.

Also, there is not much in the way of "government bureaucracy" to be seen when I visit the hospital or doctor's office here in Toronto. I go in, show my health card, see a doctor, and if they want me to have additional tests, they write up the requisition. There aren't any "bean counters" sitting there watching over the doctor's shoulder to make accounting decisions about the necessity of a medical procedure or test. My doctor does what he/she feels is medically warranted. The healthcare system pays the bill.

My understanding of HMO's is that doctors can make recommendations for medical procedures or tests, but that the HMO's "bean counters" make the ultimate decision as to whether or not it is covered. I'd be much more afraid of such a system than Canada's universal healthcare system.


Exactly. The US rightwing has brainwashed Americans with their propaganda. Most Americans live in their own little bubble, and all their information about the outside world is fed to them by Faux News. It's really kind of sad. The United States is just like North Korea.

Universal health care is bad. Because you might have to wait months for a surgical procedure. Which of course that never happens in a free market health care system. :roll: So it's better to not have health care at all, then possibly have to wait for it. Totally logical. :roll:


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04 Jun 2015, 3:42 pm

^^^
can't be wastin' no duckie$ on disposable worker's health care now, can we? when one breaks down, just kick 'em to the curb and choose from an endless line of replacement disposable workers. :roll:



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04 Jun 2015, 7:37 pm

Dark_Lord_2008 wrote:
The US is the only country in the western democratic world that does not have a universal health system because of the moronic fears of Socialism/Communism pushed by the militant Neo-Conservative right wing ranters that make up over 50% of the American population. It will cost too much money and the Communists/Socialists will destroy health system for everyone.

Europe, Australia, Canada and other places from the world have benefited from having both public and private health systems working together to deliver health care for everyone regardless of the bank account balances of people. Socio-economic status is just a silly class divide of who has the biggest/most wealth or assets. Overseas universal health care system has been a staggering success and crime rates in those countries are so much lower than the high crime rates in the USA.

The US is drowning in trillions of debt trying to win multiple wars against phantom enemies in foreign lands in pursuit of maintaining Imperialism. The Republicans support killing and maiming millions of innocent people in foreign land by the US military to the tune of trillions to tax payers every year but they do not care about helping the sick poor people of America.

In the US when your private user pay health insurance runs out you literally get thrown out of hospital onto the street like piece of garbage. The US calls itself the land of the free but is so over run by corruption in government and is the nation of hypocrisy.

The sad part is that when they poll the constituent parts of the Affordable Care Act, the polls show widespread support for those pieces. The Republican/Tea Partiers have effectively scared many in this country (remember 'death panels', etc.) to the point of being suspicious of the complete package. Then combine the stalling and no Republican votes for the plan that is based on a plan they supported in the past...



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04 Jun 2015, 7:39 pm

if only America would grow a heart and get with the rest of the world on this issue, at least.



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11 Jun 2015, 6:17 pm

I'm really enjoying my Obamacare. I have the same Blue Cross insurance that we had through my husband's company years ago that we were paying about 600 a month for and we are now paying 100.41 a month for it. My co-pay is ten bucks. There are a lot of people who don't like it though. I'll explain why I think others dislike the idea.

1. You have a tax penalty for not having insurance. That seems to stink of the government putting it's nose in your personal business. While everyone WANTS TO HAVE healthcare, nobody wants to BE FORCED TO HAVE it. See the difference? Americans are independent about things and freedom of choice is important to us, so being TOLD we have to have this and that we have to buy it, for something so personal as healthcare reminds a lot of people of communism and taking away our choices. I dislike the tax penalty but I would have gotten this insurance whether or not there was a penalty. Also, the insurance through Obamacare is on a sliding scale. You pay what is affordable for the money you make, so it's not like we are spending a weeks pay on it like before. It's being forced to have it that is the problem. Remember, you have folks here who dislike being forced to wear seatbelts or motorcycle helmets, so insurance being required is a big deal.

2. People think of stories they hear about Canada and it's healthcare. Also England. You hear about having to wait or be approved etc to have anything done. You also hear about people not being able to get something done sooner if they have the money to pay cash for it. The idea of taking away the option of just paying for what you want, when you want it directly, is something that rubs a lot of people the wrong way too. I couldn't pay for it directly, but I'd like to be able to get it done right now if I had the money. Private pay may no longer be an option for anyone, although I don't know why they would want it, as much as healthcare costs now.

3. Doctors do get paid a s**t ton of money and socialized medicine would cut their salaries. Lots of people think that all doctors rake in the cash all the time, but they also have loans to pay back and lots of overhead and insurance. Not all doctors make a ton of money either. My friend is married to our doctor and they live two houses up from me. In a house the same as mine, in this subdivision out here. Mine is bigger though and I have more property, but it's the same neighborhood, the same style house, etc. My husband is a blue collar construction worker and her husband is a white collar physician who owns his own practice, yet she lives next to me. He makes good money, but not a ton. He has to pay out a lot to be able to make that money. If there were caps on how much he could make, which socialized medicine might cause, then they would end up in a trailer somewhere probably. Nobody wants to work that hard and go to school that long just to live in a trailer. You'll have doctors quitting work left and right and working at the Mercedes plant so they can keep up their standard of living.

4. The USA is a "earn it yourself" mindset kind of country. Lots of people came here with nothing and make something for themselves. That's what we look up to here and what we are all taught we should and could do, although not everybody can do that. However, just giving something away to everybody for no effort at all seems communist as well. Giving healthcare to people who can't afford it otherwise would be seen as part of a government program but extending that to everybody seems to be taking away any motivation to do it yourself.

I don't have problems with it, although I would have handled it differently if I were him, but this way is what we have and it's working fine for me. I think people just don't know a lot about it, so they assume things. I think HMO's have done more to hurt healthcare than Obamacare ever could. HMO's drove up the costs of it and tied the hands of doctors, not Obamacare.

Anyway, thats my two cents.


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auntblabby
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11 Jun 2015, 6:34 pm

^^^^
QFT! :bounce:



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12 Jun 2015, 10:05 pm

I really do like the idea of universal healthcare.

However, Obamacare isn't a truly universal healthcare system and it isn't economically stable. Professor Scott P. Stevens explained to me that a halfway between universal and privatized (such as Obamacare) would slowly cause healthcare to be more and more an elite privilege - forcing the poor to pay out more for it than the rich. That is the equilibrium of the system.

I have heard horror stories from many kinds healthcare systems... systems do inevitably fail for at least a few people. I don't like how I've seen those horror stories used for shock value in the debate. What I never see in the debates is the malpractice rates...
On the other hand,
I know a guy who got diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor in the American System and currently goes to Mexico to get the treatment he needs (experimental, not FDA approved, but administered by American doctors in a fully equipped clinic.) He has survived for 4 years longer than he was expected and is doing well.
I have heard of Canadians crossing the border to America to bypass treatments (some of which they really did need ASAP.)
I also know a guy whose life was saved by a black market doctor in the Australia after getting in a accident and the first legal doctor sewing him up without removing a large chuck of wood in his leg.


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12 Jun 2015, 10:07 pm

fee for service is fine only for people with lots of money. for the rest of us, PPACA is literally a lifesaver, the protestations of the "let 'em die!" crowd notwithstanding.