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Tollorin
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05 Jul 2011, 12:44 pm

No really, it selected a tendency to share wealth because it's better for survival. It show that the GOP, Chicago school of economy and Ayn Rand are wrong. :wink:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/science/05angier.html?_r=2&ref=science

Quote:
Thirst for Fairness May Have Helped Us Survive
By NATALIE ANGIER
Published: July 4, 2011

Among the Ache hunter-gatherers in eastern Paraguay, healthy adults with no dependent offspring are expected to donate as much as 70 to 90 percent of the food they forage to the needier members of the group. And as those strapping suppliers themselves fall ill, give birth or grow old, they know they can count on the tribe to provide.
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Among the !Kung bushmen of the Kalahari in Africa, a successful hunter who may be inclined to swagger is kept in check by his compatriots through a ritualized game called “insulting the meat.” You asked us out here to help you carry that pitiful carcass? What is it, some kind of rabbit?

Among the Hadza foragers of northern Tanzania, people confronted by a stingy food sharer do not simply accept what’s offered. They hold out their hand, according to Frank Marlowe, an anthropologist at Durham University in England, “encouraging the giver to keep giving until the giver finally draws the line.”

Among America’s top executives today, according to a study commissioned by The New York Times, the average annual salary is about $10 million and rising some 12 percent a year. At the same time, the rest of the tribe of the United States of America struggles with miserably high unemployment, stagnant wages and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Now, maybe the wealth gap is a temporary problem, and shiny new quarters will soon rain down on us all. But if you’re feeling tetchy and surly about the lavished haves when you have not a job, if you’re tempted to go out and insult a piece of corporate meat, researchers who study the nature and evolution of human social organization say they are hardly surprised.

Darwinian-minded analysts argue that Homo sapiens have an innate distaste for hierarchical extremes, the legacy of our long nomadic prehistory as tightly knit bands living by veldt-ready team-building rules: the belief in fairness and reciprocity, a capacity for empathy and impulse control, and a willingness to work cooperatively in ways that even our smartest primate kin cannot match. As Michael Tomasello of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology has pointed out, you will never see two chimpanzees carrying a log together. The advent of agriculture and settled life may have thrown a few feudal monkeys and monarchs into the mix, but evolutionary theorists say our basic egalitarian leanings remain.

Studies have found that the thirst for fairness runs deep. As Ernst Fehr of the University of Zurich and his colleagues reported in the journal Nature, by the age of 6 or 7, children are zealously devoted to the equitable partitioning of goods, and they will choose to punish those who try to grab more than their arithmetically proper share of Smarties and jelly beans even when that means the punishers must sacrifice their own portion of treats.

In follow-up research with older children and adolescents that has yet to be published, Dr. Fehr and his colleagues have found a more nuanced understanding of fairness, an acknowledgment that some degree of inequality can make sense: The kid who studies every night deserves a better grade than the slacker. Nevertheless, said Dr. Fehr, there are limits to teenage tolerance. “ ‘One for me, two for you’ may not be too bad,” Dr. Fehr said. “But ‘one for me, five for you’ would not be accepted.”

A sense of fairness is both cerebral and visceral, cortical and limbic. In the journal PLoS Biology, Katarina Gospic of the Karolinska Institute’s Osher Center in Stockholm and her colleagues analyzed brain scans of 35 subjects as they played the famed Ultimatum game, in which participants bargain over how to divide up a fixed sum of money. Immediately upon hearing an opponent propose a split of 80 percent me, 20 percent you, scanned subjects showed a burst of activity in the amygdala, the ancient seat of outrage and aggression, followed by the arousal of higher cortical domains associated with introspection, conflict resolution and upholding rules; and 40 percent of the time they angrily rejected the deal as unfair.

That first swift limbic kick proved key. When given a mild anti-anxiety drug that suppressed the amygdala response, subjects still said they viewed an 80-20 split as unjust, but their willingness to reject it outright dropped in half. “This indicates that the act of treating people fairly and implementing justice in society has evolutionary roots,“ Dr. Gospic said. “It increases our survival.”

David Sloan Wilson, an evolutionary theorist at the State University of New York at Binghamton, sees the onset of humanity’s cooperative, fair-and-square spirit as one of the major transitions in the history of life on earth, moments when individual organisms or selection units band together and stake their future fitness on each other. A larger bacterial cell engulfs a smaller bacterial cell to form the first complex eukaryotic cell. Single cells merge into multicellular organisms of specialized parts. Ants and bees become hive-minded superorganisms and push all other insects aside.

“A major transition occurs when you have mechanisms for suppressing fitness differences and establishing equality within groups, so that it is no longer possible to succeed at the expense of your group,” Dr. Wilson said. “It’s a rare event, and it’s hard to get started, but when it does you can quickly dominate the earth.” Human evolution, he said, “clearly falls into this paradigm.”

Our rise to global dominance began, paradoxically enough, when we set rigid dominance hierarchies aside. “In a typical primate group, the toughest individuals can have their way and dominate everybody else in the group,” said Dr. Wilson. “Chimps are very smart, but their intelligence is predicated on distrust.”

Our ancestors had to learn to trust their neighbors, and the seeds of our mutuality can be seen in our simplest gestures, like the willingness to point out a hidden object to another, as even toddlers will do. Early humans also needed ways to control would-be bullies, and our exceptional pitching skills — which researchers speculate originally arose to help us ward off predators — probably helped. “We can throw much better than any other primate,” Dr. Wilson said, “and once we could throw things at a distance, all of a sudden the alpha male is vulnerable to being dispatched with stones. Stoning might have been one of our first adaptations.”

Low hierarchy does not mean no hierarchy. Through ethnographic and cross-cultural studies, researchers have concluded that the basic template for human social groups is moderately but not unerringly egalitarian. They have found gradients of wealth and power among even the most nomadic groups, but such gradients tend to be mild. In a recent analysis of five hunter-gatherer populations, Eric Aiden Smith of the University of Washington and his colleagues found the average degree of income equality to be roughly half that seen in the United States, and close to the wealth distribution of Denmark.

Interestingly, another recent study found that when Americans were given the chance to construct their version of the optimal wealth gradient for America, both Republicans and Democrats came up with a chart that looked like Sweden’s. There’s no need to insult the meat in the land of lutefisk.


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Philologos
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05 Jul 2011, 3:23 pm

The "Darwin Darwin" theme is a bit overkill, as is the equivalent in the "Creation Moments" and the "Thanks to Uncle Joe, we made our quota this year".

And it is not, I would say, TECHNICALLY socialism as normally conceived.

But the major point is well taken. The small-band intermarried society described and its parallels in the farming village and the company subdivision where Stone grew up makes possible the limited hierarchy and skill-based division of labor that restrains abusers and sanctions users and gets the best out of each type of person. It IS the structure that fits us.

Civilization - which is by definition living in cities - and suburbanization make us less human.



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05 Jul 2011, 4:31 pm

I concur with OP, I have been studying these kinds of features in primate and human development for a long time now and this is consistent, the Chicago school/washington consensus axis is aberant behaviour and entirely culturaly specific and modern.

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05 Jul 2011, 5:17 pm

Tollorin wrote:
No really, it selected a tendency to share wealth because it's better for survival. It show that the GOP, Chicago school of economy and Ayn Rand are wrong. :wink:

Your interpretation is terrible. The research isn't showing that the GOP and the Chicago school of economics are wrong. It shows that Ayn Rand is wrong, but the former two do not rely on such interpretations of human psychology.

Even further, the title of the OP is also wrong. Socialism is an economic system/framework, while egalitarianism is goal-minded. As such, to be an egalitarian, you do not have to commit to a particular system, NOR does the existence of a goal show that a certain socio-economic framework is universally successful across situations.

Now, can this research be used in a larger argument towards this end? Yes. Is the research actually the larger argument? No, as evolution never foresaw the current social and/or economic infrastructure, and a person with unusual political aims could argue that civilization and urbanization are also evolutionarily opposed based upon research using Dunbar's number and other things, but we'd easily recognize the absurdity of such an effort.



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05 Jul 2011, 6:09 pm

I do love this kind of talk:

as evolution never foresaw

Hard to avoid that creeping anthropomorphism.

Evolutionary theory, of course, is purely historical, not predictive. same as Comparative Linguistics.



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05 Jul 2011, 6:53 pm

Philologos wrote:
I do love this kind of talk:

as evolution never foresaw

Hard to avoid that creeping anthropomorphism.

Evolutionary theory, of course, is purely historical, not predictive. same as Comparative Linguistics.

Well, I am fine with anthropomorphism, as a lot of the language we use is going to be adapted from language we already have.

Well, evolutionary theory has made predictions, but mostly predictions of what we should expect given certain features in a biosphere.

In any case, all of that being said, the argument from evolution made here is relatively flawed. I am willing to grant that these facts can be used in a larger argument, but I will not grant that these facts are sufficient to constitute an argument.



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05 Jul 2011, 7:02 pm

Define "socialism" as it is to be understood in this thread, please?
Ditto for "evolution"?
Also, I don't understand what is being anthropomorphized.



Jacoby
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05 Jul 2011, 7:05 pm

I read about half the article(sorry short attention span today) but wouldn't early/primitive societies being this way suggest the opposite? Individualism has allowed us to move beyond subsistence level existence. I'd take our advanced societies over tribal life any day. Maybe it addresses that , I'll read it after the ballgame if it does.



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05 Jul 2011, 10:47 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Define "socialism" as it is to be understood in this thread, please?
Ditto for "evolution"?
Also, I don't understand what is being anthropomorphized.


I interpreted it to be a misuse of the term and replaced it with 'social behaviour' or 'mutual aid' as defined by Kropotkin [Anarcho syndicalist thinker and philosopher].

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05 Jul 2011, 10:58 pm

This discusses what happens within 1 single tribe, but maybe we should also look to prehistory at behavior between tribes because I think that's closer to what we're dealing with.

If you want to looking at modern humans in this way the very rich are their own tribe. I imagine they may sometimes follow the traits of looking out for each other. Especially against other groups like the Government tribe.



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05 Jul 2011, 11:00 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:
This discusses what happens within 1 single tribe, but maybe we should also look to prehistory at behavior between tribes because I think that's closer to what we're dealing with.

If you want to looking at modern humans in this way the very rich are their own tribe.


In this case you will find loads of evidence for 'communalistic' or 'social' behaviour throughout human evolution, it could be said that it is one of the defining factors in our success as a species.

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05 Jul 2011, 11:03 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Define "socialism" as it is to be understood in this thread, please?
Ditto for "evolution"?
Also, I don't understand what is being anthropomorphized.


Let others define socialism and evolution here. Evolution is I think being used in a pretty standard sense here. I think the original use of socialism was rather unconventional.

As for anthropomorphism, I amicably twitted AG, who has referred to anthropomorphizing elsewhere, for saying "evolution never foresaw". Which is the kind of talk one would use of a god or "Mother Nature" planning and steering the development of species.

Which of course is not what he intended.

With evolution, history, comparative linguistics, any of the retrospective sciences, you can make intelligent informed guesses about future developments. Intervocalic voiceless stops are likely to voice or fo fricative. Empires that start relying on mercenaries are likely to fall. Species operating in a cold climate are likely to have more compact bodies. Like that there.

But you cannot predict precise path or specific details of outcome, nor the timing.

As AG says, we do talk in these terms. I have heard senior historical linguists and linguistic historians moving prehistoric tribes and their languages around like kids with action figures - Then the Podunk move west along the river, and they settle in the Marv valley " --

"No, I want them to go SOUTH and they conquer the Daleks. Then they acquire peanuts and move to the Marv valley."



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05 Jul 2011, 11:23 pm

Although the problems of social unresponsiveness is in the forefront of criticism of current economic difficulties there is something to be said in a quirk of the monetary system which emphasizes the use of money to acquire more money in the most efficient way irrespective of its destruction of the use of money to energize production and consumption to the benefit of the general population. This is a major fault in the basic system and there seems no obvious way to remedy it when the powerful allocation of monetary wealth is devoted to prevent any change.



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05 Jul 2011, 11:27 pm

Sand wrote:
Although the problems of social unresponsiveness is in the forefront of criticism of current economic difficulties there is something to be said in a quirk of the monetary system which emphasizes the use of money to acquire more money in the most efficient way irrespective of its destruction of the use of money to energize production and consumption to the benefit of the general population. This is a major fault in the basic system and there seems no obvious way to remedy it when the powerful allocation of monetary wealth is devoted to prevent any change.


A somewhat clunky statement but an accurate assessment - I concur :wink:

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05 Jul 2011, 11:32 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Sand wrote:
Although the problems of social unresponsiveness is in the forefront of criticism of current economic difficulties there is something to be said in a quirk of the monetary system which emphasizes the use of money to acquire more money in the most efficient way irrespective of its destruction of the use of money to energize production and consumption to the benefit of the general population. This is a major fault in the basic system and there seems no obvious way to remedy it when the powerful allocation of monetary wealth is devoted to prevent any change.


A somewhat clunky statement but an accurate assessment - I concur :wink:

peace j


Happy to have you concur. If the problem can be presented with better style and concision I would be delighted to see it.



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05 Jul 2011, 11:34 pm

Sand wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:
Sand wrote:
Although the problems of social unresponsiveness is in the forefront of criticism of current economic difficulties there is something to be said in a quirk of the monetary system which emphasizes the use of money to acquire more money in the most efficient way irrespective of its destruction of the use of money to energize production and consumption to the benefit of the general population. This is a major fault in the basic system and there seems no obvious way to remedy it when the powerful allocation of monetary wealth is devoted to prevent any change.


A somewhat clunky statement but an accurate assessment - I concur :wink:

peace j


Happy to have you concur. If the problem can be presented with better style and concision I would be delighted to see it.


Dude, have you read my posts? :oops: :lol:

peace j


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