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Inuyasha
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21 Aug 2011, 6:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Shantih wrote:

It's sad that the justification for the very existence of the state of Israel is the genoicde of Jews, and yet they're doing exactly the same thing to the Palestinians as the Germans did to them.

.


Some genocide. The Palestinian population is increasing rapidly (high birth rate) eventually the differential birth rate will be the end of Israel.

ruveyn


If the Palestinians were to stop attacking Israel and agree (and actually mean it) to no longer support terrorism, we could see the peace in a week where no one on either side dies (except maybe Hezbollah's leadership after they try attacking Israeli citizens at Iran's orders; and the victims from the Hezbollah attacks to disrupt the peace). If the Israelis were to lay down their arms, we would probably see every Israeli murdered down to the last newborn baby. Fact of the matter is, Israel has largely tried to avoid killing civilians.



Shantih
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21 Aug 2011, 6:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Some genocide. The Palestinian population is increasing rapidly (high birth rate) eventually the differential birth rate will be the end of Israel.

ruveyn

Genocide doesn't presuppose an intention to wipe out a race altogether - it simply means killing a large group of people intentionally, which is what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Genocide
Noun: The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

If Israel could get away with the absolute annihlation of the Palestinian people, they'd try it.



Last edited by Shantih on 21 Aug 2011, 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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21 Aug 2011, 6:35 pm

[quote="Shantih"
Noun: The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.[/quote]

The Israelis are killing Palestinians because Palestinians are killing Israelis. Where I come from, that is called war.

Was the War in the Pacific genocide? The U.S. spent a lot of money and lives killing Japanese folk. Oh darn! It was the Pearl Harbor thing...

ruveyn



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21 Aug 2011, 6:44 pm

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The Israelis are killing Palestinians because Palestinians are killing Israelis. Where I come from, that is called war.

Well, first of all, the very existence of the state of Israel is the result of the displacement and murder of tens of thousands oif Palestinians - Israel wasn't created legally, at the discretion of the Palestinian people, it was simply bombed into existence because Britain and America allowed it. The very existence of the State of Israel is, by international law, illegal, and Israel, since its creation, has henceforth been a culprit of pretty much every war crime in the book.

Don't you remember when Israel sank YOUR nation's ship - the USS Liberty? I find it strange that in spite of Israel's obvious disgregard for the legality of its actions, and for the welfare of other countries - even its ally America, it still finds support on a large governmental and civil scale. Simply extraordinary.

Quote:
Was the War in the Pacific genocide? The U.S. spent a lot of money and lives killing Japanese folk. Oh darn! It was the Pearl Harbor thing...

Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide. Although I don't see what it has to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict.



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21 Aug 2011, 7:16 pm

This is a good topic.



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21 Aug 2011, 7:24 pm

Shantih wrote:
Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide. Although I don't see what it has to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict.


Your definition of genocide is wrong. Was the bombing of Dresden genocide? Genocide involves brutal acts of war but not all brutal acts of war are genocide.

Wiki genocide. It's a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group. War is about killing people to get land and resources and stuff. There lies the difference.


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21 Aug 2011, 7:32 pm

Also, I'd like to add that ethnic cleansing is different in meaning to genocide. Genocide is a subset of ethnic cleansing that involves systematic extermination.

The actions of Zionists in Palestine can in no way be called genocide. Whether they do ethnic cleansing is debatable.


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21 Aug 2011, 8:51 pm

Shantih wrote:
Quote:
The Israelis are killing Palestinians because Palestinians are killing Israelis. Where I come from, that is called war.

Well, first of all, the very existence of the state of Israel is the result of the displacement and murder of tens of thousands oif Palestinians - Israel wasn't created legally, at the discretion of the Palestinian people, it was simply bombed into existence because Britain and America allowed it. The very existence of the State of Israel is, by international law, illegal, and Israel, since its creation, has henceforth been a culprit of pretty much every war crime in the book.

Don't you remember when Israel sank YOUR nation's ship - the USS Liberty? I find it strange that in spite of Israel's obvious disgregard for the legality of its actions, and for the welfare of other countries - even its ally America, it still finds support on a large governmental and civil scale. Simply extraordinary.

Quote:
Was the War in the Pacific genocide? The U.S. spent a lot of money and lives killing Japanese folk. Oh darn! It was the Pearl Harbor thing...

Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide. Although I don't see what it has to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict.


their citizens approved of and powered the japanese war machine which swept through asia and the pacific enslaving, torturing, maiming, raping, murdering, and starving the various populations they encountered. The bombing of those who power the machine is genocidal but we need a moral and immoral term for genocide as the bombing of those in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was moral but the ongoing slaughter in the Congo, Uganda, and Sudan are not.

Do you protest the existence of Panama or Pakistan? What nation isn't born out of bloodshed, and certainly every nation and her borders were not always legitimate at one point but time is a healer and though some still find lame excuses to protest the reunification of the northern and southern italy, if you can't forgive humans for being human, then find something else to occupy your mind.

Do note that the US aides a great many nations, many of which their names never make any round of criticisms let alone a simple mention on the many political forums on the internet. Our aide varys from 25 to 40 billion dollars every year. Israel receives between 2 to 4 of that. It's not a big deal. Egypt recieves 1.5 to 2.5 of that. No one ever goes ape over that. Or that we fight Aids in AFrica to the tune of almost 10 billion a year.


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Shantih
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22 Aug 2011, 4:42 am

puddingmouse wrote:
Shantih wrote:
Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide. Although I don't see what it has to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict.


Your definition of genocide is wrong. Was the bombing of Dresden genocide? Genocide involves brutal acts of war but not all brutal acts of war are genocide.

Wiki genocide. It's a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group. War is about killing people to get land and resources and stuff. There lies the difference.

You're wrong: Google 'genocide definition', and it will return the following:
Quote:
gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun: The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


It doesn't mention anything of an attempt to eradicate a race in its entirety.

Quote:
their citizens approved of and powered the japanese war machine which swept through asia and the pacific enslaving, torturing, maiming, raping, murdering, and starving the various populations they encountered.

If I was going to be put in prison, and tortured on a daily basis for not supporting a tyrannical government I'd support it too.

Quote:
The bombing of those who power the machine is genocidal but we need a moral and immoral term for genocide as the bombing of those in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was moral but the ongoing slaughter in the Congo, Uganda, and Sudan are not.

How are people who go about their daily business trying to make a living 'powering the machine'? Should they just kill themselves simply because their sustenance of their existence helps the state in some way?

Quote:
Do you protest the existence of Panama or Pakistan? What nation isn't born out of bloodshed, and certainly every nation and her borders were not always legitimate at one point but time is a healer and though some still find lame excuses to protest the reunification of the northern and southern italy, if you can't forgive humans for being human, then find something else to occupy your mind.

What I don't get is why Israel enclosed the land (formerly the British mandate) and called it 'Israel', and kicked out all the Palestinians whose territories they wanted... Couldn't they have just moved in quietly without any hassle, and assimilated, rather than coming in to take the Palestinians' land altogether and kill them off?

No. Their intentions weren't peaceful. They wanted political power, and at the cost of the blood of the Palestinian people.

Quote:
Do note that the US aides a great many nations, many of which their names never make any round of criticisms let alone a simple mention on the many political forums on the internet. Our aide varys from 25 to 40 billion dollars every year. Israel receives between 2 to 4 of that. It's not a big deal. Egypt recieves 1.5 to 2.5 of that. No one ever goes ape over that. Or that we fight Aids in AFrica to the tune of almost 10 billion a year.

According to 2007 figures, the United States government gave more than $6.8 million to wealthy Israel every DAY while to the desperate and devastated Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank they gave just $300,000.



ruveyn
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22 Aug 2011, 8:23 am

Shantih wrote:
Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide.


Not so. It was Payback for Pearl Harbor.

ruveyn



Shantih
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22 Aug 2011, 9:26 am

ruveyn wrote:
Shantih wrote:
Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide.


Not so. It was Payback for Pearl Harbor.

ruveyn

So you punish the pilots and airmen who destroyed Pearl Habour (who were on orders, and had no say in the matter), by killing hundreds of thousands of CIVILLIANS and rendering two whole cities uninhabitable for generations to come.

Women in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, in 2011, are still giving birth to deformed babies - that's not justice, it's criminality.

The interesting thing however, is that the Japanese take it all on the chin; they don't ask for billions of dollars in reparation like the Jews do for the so-called holocaust. They have honour.



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22 Aug 2011, 11:43 am

The Religious Right may be even more of a threat to Israels existence because of these agendas:

1. Destroy Israels socialized medicine and end universal access to health care.
2. Destroy Israels socialized means of land distribution which will mean the end of all Jewish settlements and homesteads.
3. Destroy and outlaw all Kibbutzes because they are a socialist conspiracy to destroy capitalism.
4.. Repeal the Jubilee laws and denounce these laws as Fidel Castro land and debt reform.
5. Have a bunch of rich Sheik landlords take over all the land of Israel and charge everyone rent.



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22 Aug 2011, 12:56 pm

Shantih wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Shantih wrote:
Yes. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, along with a multitude of other crimes over in that area, were also genocide. Although I don't see what it has to do with the Israel/Palestine conflict.


Your definition of genocide is wrong. Was the bombing of Dresden genocide? Genocide involves brutal acts of war but not all brutal acts of war are genocide.

Wiki genocide. It's a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group. War is about killing people to get land and resources and stuff. There lies the difference.

You're wrong: Google 'genocide definition', and it will return the following:
Quote:
gen·o·cide/ˈjenəˌsīd/
Noun: The deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


It doesn't mention anything of an attempt to eradicate a race in its entirety.


That definition is wrong. If you click on the links to dictionary.com, , Merriam-Webster, etc, there's a subtle but significant difference in the wording:

genocide  
gen·o·cide   [jen-uh-sahyd]
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.


This is similar to the legal definition: http://www.preventgenocide.org/genocide ... altext.htm

If you read that link, it says genocide is a deliberate attempt to destroy an ethnic group in whole OR in part. The main motivator of a non-genocidal act of war is not to destroy a part of an ethnic group.

Bombing Dresden wasn't about killing Germans for being Germans and bombing Nagasaki wasn't about killing Japanese people for being Japanese and the Israeli settlements are not about killing Palestinians for being Palestinians. The Interahamwe were about killing Tutsi for being Tutsi that's why it's called the Rwandan genocide and not just Rwandan War.

Also, here's more definitions from many more sources that say similar things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions


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puddingmouse
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22 Aug 2011, 1:12 pm

Shantih wrote:

The interesting thing however, is that the Japanese take it all on the chin; they don't ask for billions of dollars in reparation like the Jews do for the so-called holocaust. They have honour.


8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O

Are you being serious?


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22 Aug 2011, 1:24 pm

It has been a tough week, and I guess century, for the Palestinians. The old leadership under Arafat was corrupt, and now the newer leadership under Hamas does this:

"Hamas Feels The Pinch"

Quote:
Last week we noted that Hamas was betraying the Palestinian cause in a servile surrender to its Syrian and Iranian paymasters. By remaining silent as Syria shelled a Palestinian refugee camp in Latakia and cracking down on anti-Assad demonstrators in the Gaza Strip the allegedly pro-Palestinian movement was clearly placing the interests of foreign patrons above those of the Palestinian people.
Apparently Hamas failed to abase itself deeply enough for the cold and relentless mullahs of Tehran. From Reuters:
[Several] diplomats cited Iran’s displeasure over Hamas’ refusal to hold rallies in support of Tehran’s ally, Assad, in Palestinian refugee camps in Syria after an uprising against his rule. Hamas’ leadership outside the Gaza Strip is headquartered in Damascus.
In a sign of a cash crunch, the Hamas government in Gaza has failed to pay the July salaries of its 40,000 employees in the civil service and security forces. Hamas leaders promised full payments in August, but not all employees received their wages as scheduled on Sunday.
Silence isn’t enough when the dictator kills. You must dance and sing with joy.
If the mullahs in Iran were trying to alienate Arab opinion and feed paranoia about the Persian menace they could hardly do a better job.


The rest can be read at:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... the-pinch/