Page 13 of 21 [ 333 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 21  Next

Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,606
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

03 Sep 2011, 11:57 am

Philologos wrote:
LKL wrote:


That is disingenuous, Phil. You are leaving out the important half of the argument, which is that no one is harmed and all participants are consensual. The state has no interest in regulating behaviors where no one is harmed and all participants are consensual: not in public, but especially not in the privacy of one's home.


I am disingenuous? First, it is by no means clear that serious neutral slant researh would establish that sexual activity harms no one. But in any case: the STATE makes the rules on what it requisite for "consent". The STATE makes the rules on what it regulates.


We've been through this already and I've explained why young children are not able to consent. Furthermore, the burden of proof is not on me to show that homosexual activity between two consenting adults doesn't do anymore harm than heterosexual activity between two adults. If you claim that it does, then that burden of proof is on you, so if you want to continue this line of argument then cite some sources or shut up.

Philologos wrote:
I think I will expand. I was in London in the 60s. In those days [maybe still for all I know, help us out, Tequila if you are trading this] television sets to be used in the privacy of your home had to be licensed. Detector vans went around, anennas turning to find working TVs in flats without a license.


This is actually a false analogy since TV licenses are a way of getting people to pay for a service. Being required to have a TV license in order to watch TV is no different from being required to pay your water and electricity bill.

Philologos wrote:
Today, we keep hearing about the State checking people's drives, maybe with, maybe without warrant, for illicit materials.

The State - Big Brother has an interest in what Big Brother SAYS he has an interest in. Pooh to whether or not any one refuses to consent, or withdraws consent after the act [people do make stupid mistakes]. Pah to whether research or the individual says anybody or thing was harmed.


The state has no business doing any of that. I would oppose the State taking any of the above actions just as much as I would oppose the State taking an interest in whether people are involved in homosexual activity with another consenting adult. In my country, one our rights protected under the constitution is a right to privacy.



Last edited by Jono on 03 Sep 2011, 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

03 Sep 2011, 12:16 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
pandabear, if I were an administrator here, you would quite frankly be perma-banned for that comment. I wouldn't care if it had been directed at someone I couldn't stand either, in my book you have crossed the line.
Likewise, but with considerably more justification, for your obscene insinuations and weak attempts at linking homosexuality with paedophilia.
pandabear was making a joke, but you are actually being serious.


I am being serious, and my comments are more about the idiocy of politicians and activist judges whom seem to have no moral values. Yes I believe Gay Marriage can be used to pave the way to legalize pedophilia, I mean seriously the people that you are putting your faith in making sure it won't happen are the same people that literally tried to ban drinking water.

@ pandabear

I really don't care what you claim or source at this point, you have literally no credibility in my view.



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

03 Sep 2011, 1:18 pm

Jono wrote:
We've been through this already and I've explained why young children are not able to consent.


If you did anything of the sort, I totally missed it. I remember you asserting it. I do not doubt that some laws define it. But law is not fact. Could you actually explain what is the actual difference between capable of informed consent and incsapabvle of informed consent? Fact, please, not policy.

Jono wrote:
Furthermore, the burden of proof is not on me to show that homosexual activity between two consenting adults doesn't do anymore harm than heterosexual activity between two adults. If you claim that it does, then that burden of proof is on you, so if you want to continue this line of argument then cite some sources or shut up..


First, why - other than your say so - is the burden of proof not on you? Are you the burden of proof czar? Further, you know - or you would know if you bothered to read - that I have made and an qualified to make NO claim bearing on the question. I simply ask the question.

Finally, when will they learn? I am not arguing, I am trying to discuss. There is an important difference.

Jono wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I think I will expand....Detector vans went around, anennas turning to find working TVs in flats without a license.


This is actually a false analogy since TV licenses are a way of getting people to pay for a service. Being required to have a TV license in order to watch TV is no different from being required to pay your water and electricity bill.


How is it not relevant that the State in fact takes an interest in what people do in their home?

Jono wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Today, we keep hearing about the State checking people's drives, maybe with, maybe without warrant, for illicit materials.

The State - Big Brother has an interest in what Big Brother SAYS he has an interest in. Pooh to whether or not any one refuses to consent, or withdraws consent after the act [people do make stupid mistakes]. Pah to whether research or the individual says anybody or thing was harmed.


The state has no business doing any of that. I would oppose the State taking any of the above actions just as much as I would oppose the State taking an interest in whether people are involved in homosexual activity with another consenting adult. In my country, one our rights protected under the constitution is a right to privacy.


Tell that to the State, not to me. The State has made me [let alone anyone else] do any number of things I have no interest in doing and satopped me from doing any number of things I would like to do that would not so far as I can see imppact anyone else. That is what the State does/

Or do you live somewhere where the State just says, Go on, do as you see fit, just play nice?

Pardon me while I hide my laughter.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 87
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

03 Sep 2011, 1:26 pm

I would love to see some solve the problem of the beard while shaving themselves with Ocam's Razor on a Slippery Slope.

ruveyn



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 48
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

03 Sep 2011, 2:27 pm

Philologos wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's that whole 'consent of the governed' thing. Gay people are already getting married and starting families de facto; what they and their allies want is for the government to recognize that, or at least to get out of the way.


Okay - not sensu stricto a theory and locus for rights as such. Not a problem - the terminology on this and so much else is hopelessly confused.

But - whether we like it or not - governments by several powers more than communities make it their business NOT to get out of people's way.

Most of the political toktok focusses not on keeping Big Brother at bay so much as on letting ME do what I want and stopping HIM from bothering me.

[Ah, takes me back - playing politely wjith my sisters, and one sings out - "Mommy, he's bothering us" - and I was always sent elsewhere.]

If the government did not regulate and interfere, how would they justify their salaries? And more - how could they handle their existence?

Cutting a Socializer off from regulating and "educating" is the same as cutting me and my kind off cold turkey from research.

None of which is an argument that legally or morally justifies withholding recognition from devoted gay couples.



Philologos
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,987

03 Sep 2011, 2:50 pm

LKL wrote:
None of which is an argument that legally or morally justifies withholding recognition from devoted gay couples.


Not making arguments. There may well be moral arguments for or against this or that. In fact, I believe there are, though identifying the moral arguments is by n means easy - moral issues are far too complex for legal systems.

as for legal justification, like I say, that is what Big Brother says it is. The State - I repeat - don't need no stinking justification. And could not care less about morality.

Civilized human governments generally operate at about the level of a three year old.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

03 Sep 2011, 3:29 pm

LKL wrote:
Philologos wrote:
LKL wrote:
It's that whole 'consent of the governed' thing. Gay people are already getting married and starting families de facto; what they and their allies want is for the government to recognize that, or at least to get out of the way.


Okay - not sensu stricto a theory and locus for rights as such. Not a problem - the terminology on this and so much else is hopelessly confused.

But - whether we like it or not - governments by several powers more than communities make it their business NOT to get out of people's way.

Most of the political toktok focusses not on keeping Big Brother at bay so much as on letting ME do what I want and stopping HIM from bothering me.

[Ah, takes me back - playing politely wjith my sisters, and one sings out - "Mommy, he's bothering us" - and I was always sent elsewhere.]

If the government did not regulate and interfere, how would they justify their salaries? And more - how could they handle their existence?

Cutting a Socializer off from regulating and "educating" is the same as cutting me and my kind off cold turkey from research.

None of which is an argument that legally or morally justifies withholding recognition from devoted gay couples.


Actually it does.

In the case of traditional marriage of one man and one woman, you could argue that the intent is procreation (having children), that is an argument outside of simply being arbitrary as to why it should be legal but the others shouldn't.

Homosexual Marriage opens up the door to everything else, because one can argue that the law is simply being arbitrary.

Age of Consent laws, are laws and laws can be changed, plus you can argue it is arbitrary to discriminate against a particular group.

Also as far as pedophilia not being normalized, that is not strictly true if you look at the female teachers whom only got a slap on the wrist for molesting boys (then you have the crackpots saying they were doing the boys a service, and the boys were stupid for reporting the teacher, etc.).

I'm not blaming homosexuals here, I'm pointing out the unintended consequences resulting from the legalization of gay marriage.

Top that off there are all kinds of arguments that could be used to get the support of crackpot politicians and activist judges.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

03 Sep 2011, 3:36 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
@ pandabear

I really don't care what you claim or source at this point, you have literally no credibility in my view.


:roll:

I provided the original legal documents. Affidavits signed by Rusty himself. Nothing could have higher credibility.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

03 Sep 2011, 3:38 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Also as far as pedophilia not being normalized, that is not strictly true if you look at the female teachers whom only got a slap on the wrist for molesting boys (then you have the crackpots saying they were doing the boys a service, and the boys were stupid for reporting the teacher, etc.).


:roll:

These female teachers have been sentenced to many, many years of prison.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

03 Sep 2011, 3:43 pm

pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
@ pandabear

I really don't care what you claim or source at this point, you have literally no credibility in my view.


:roll:

I provided the original legal documents. Affidavits signed by Rusty himself. Nothing could have higher credibility.


Except for the left's habit of manufacturing fraudulent documents.

Seriously, if Rush was really doing what you said, he would have been in Prison by now,, especially considering how much the left hates him.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

03 Sep 2011, 3:45 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
@ pandabear

I really don't care what you claim or source at this point, you have literally no credibility in my view.


:roll:

I provided the original legal documents. Affidavits signed by Rusty himself. Nothing could have higher credibility.


Except for the left's habit of manufacturing fraudulent documents.

Seriously, if Rush was really doing what you said, he would have been in Prison by now,, especially considering how much the left hates him.


:roll:

He should be in prison. However, age of consent laws are not only different in the Dominican Republic compared to Florida, but are rarely enforced.

The documents are not, by any means, fraudulent.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

03 Sep 2011, 3:48 pm

pandabear wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Also as far as pedophilia not being normalized, that is not strictly true if you look at the female teachers whom only got a slap on the wrist for molesting boys (then you have the crackpots saying they were doing the boys a service, and the boys were stupid for reporting the teacher, etc.).


:roll:

These female teachers have been sentenced to many, many years of prison.


Really, I thought one of them only got sentenced to prison after they violated a restraining order.

pandabear wrote:
The documents are not, by any means, fraudulent.


CBS news also said that in Rathergate.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

03 Sep 2011, 3:55 pm

:roll:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/ ... 1324.shtml

Quote:
"Drug use, some might say, is destroying this country. And we have laws against selling drugs, pushing drugs, using drugs, importing drugs. ... And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up,"


Yes, he should have been imprisoned for illegally purchasing and abusing the prescription drugs OxyContin and hydrocodone.

Then, children in the Dominican Republic would have been saved from one pervert.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

03 Sep 2011, 4:00 pm

pandabear wrote:
:roll:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/ ... 1324.shtml

Quote:
"Drug use, some might say, is destroying this country. And we have laws against selling drugs, pushing drugs, using drugs, importing drugs. ... And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up,"


Yes, he should have been imprisoned for illegally purchasing and abusing the prescription drugs OxyContin and hydrocodone.

Then, children in the Dominican Republic would have been saved from one pervert.


:roll:

Riiightt....

Except for the fact that Rush Limbaugh has a really bad back and got hooked on a pain killer he was originally prescribed either to deal with the pain from a surgery or a doctor prescribed it originally. That's a little different than going around trying to smoke a joint to get high.

Also, you really missed the reference.

Rathergate is also known as memogate, it is when CBS tried to paint Bush as derelict in his duty when he was in the National Guard, only to have the story blow up in their face because the evidence they used was so blatently fraudulent it was hysterical.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

03 Sep 2011, 4:06 pm

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news ... rentPage=1

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news ... rentPage=2

Quote:
Among banner ads for Viagra, members can shuffle through pictures of dull-eyed prostitutes engaged in flagrante delicto with the members/amateur pornographers.

....

In the Dominican Republic, as in many developing countries, many women are driven to sell their bodies by poverty and lack of alternatives. It is a profession that is illegal but tolerated by local authorities, who accept kickbacks to turn a blind eye to the seedier side of tourism.

In Puerto Plata there are so many streetwalkers competing for the attention of vacationers that one hair stylist said she doesn't leave her home after dark because she doesn't want to be mistaken for a puta. In the town's discos, bars and restaurants, solitary women stare suggestively at male tourists or rub up against them like cats.

"I don't have an education, and I've got two children," shrugged 15-year-old Belkis as she slinked along the busy beach promenade here in a hot pink Lycra dress. "Where else can I make such good money? To be a prostitute, you don't need schooling, all you need is your body."

Belkis' rates start at $15 for oral sex, and she charges $5 extra if a man doesn't want to use a condom...


It is highly unlikely that a rich, influential pedophile like Rush Limbaugh would be arrested and convicted in the Dominican Republic, where a blow job from a 15-year-old is only $15-$20.



Inuyasha
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,745

03 Sep 2011, 4:10 pm

pandabear wrote:
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/07/44888?currentPage=1

http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news ... rentPage=2

Quote:
Among banner ads for Viagra, members can shuffle through pictures of dull-eyed prostitutes engaged in flagrante delicto with the members/amateur pornographers.

....

In the Dominican Republic, as in many developing countries, many women are driven to sell their bodies by poverty and lack of alternatives. It is a profession that is illegal but tolerated by local authorities, who accept kickbacks to turn a blind eye to the seedier side of tourism.

In Puerto Plata there are so many streetwalkers competing for the attention of vacationers that one hair stylist said she doesn't leave her home after dark because she doesn't want to be mistaken for a puta. In the town's discos, bars and restaurants, solitary women stare suggestively at male tourists or rub up against them like cats.

"I don't have an education, and I've got two children," shrugged 15-year-old Belkis as she slinked along the busy beach promenade here in a hot pink Lycra dress. "Where else can I make such good money? To be a prostitute, you don't need schooling, all you need is your body."

Belkis' rates start at $15 for oral sex, and she charges $5 extra if a man doesn't want to use a condom...


It is highly unlikely that a rich, influential pedophile like Rush Limbaugh would be arrested and convicted in the Dominican Republic, where a blow job from a 15-year-old is only $15-$20.


:roll:

Considering how much of a thorn in the side he is to Democrats and Obama in particular, your argument really doesn't make any sense.