How do you lot manage to stick with a religion?

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Faith. If you know enough science you know it's flawed. Why deny the existence of a catalyst such as god just because we can't see it? Its very shortsighted. The same goes for Stephen Hawking supposedly proving that god doesn't exist using physics. Its almost as laughable as infinite parallel universes...

What you have is not a religion. Go to a church and change your mind constantly, get excommunicated and shunned as a heretic.

And there you have it, folks. Straight from the mouth of the militant chump.

A new definition of religion:

It is a religion if and only if thinking is penalized.

Of course, that applies to many areas of the "science" Vexillifer was just praising.

And it means we have to find a new word of those belief systems like Christianity where deep and serious thought and investigation has been going on for centuries. Yes, there are "Christian" organizations where check brains at door is true, just as there are scientific entities where you better not think outside the consensus' box. And I am a heretic many times over in both kinds of place, as I am in Vexillifer's mind, where I am seen to be different.

But, mes amis, Christianus sum - and I think constantly and tweak what I see as near truth, exactly as I do in Linguistics.

I guess that fits with why I don't call myself religious, as I would rather stab myself in the eye than to suppress all thought about my God which does not even contradict the bible. I refused to let "tradition" dictate my opinions which is a sentiment shared with the people I hang around with that call themselves christian, in a place we call church.

I gave up religion as it made no sense and demanded so much, but gave nothing.

Curious. I have found that "religion" [*NOT talking formally and carefully] demands much less than a politically conscious university department demands of its members. But maybe you are not in such.

The Dept DID give you social acceptance of you could conform and perform - but unfortunately from day 1 I have been unable to do so and had to fight being kicked out for years till I let them win.

My "religion" [STILL used very loosely, and I feel guilty for being imprecise] has not given me acceptance - it made me more of an outcast at the U - but a lot of satisfaction and comprehension [for me a major goal].

Religious affiliation has some social benefits. I belong to a synagogue and I do Torah reading for the congregation. Thinking of it in the same way that the organist does weekly gigs for a church. However I do not charge for the service. I am just being a good neighbor to people I know and like.

ruveyn

That's been my biggest complaint about the attempts made to destroy religion by the more progressive contingents of society. They're taking thousands of years of social engineering and best practices to replace it with - really nothing. A secular ritual of sorts, things to remind us of who and what we are, public gatherings for the sake of people getting together to know each other and centering around charitable aims - all that is missing and IMO its a loss not a gain. Single people can't even find a place to meet each other anymore and I'm watching some of the best people I know drop out of that because the bar scene isn't their thing and there's really nothing else.

My grandma lives.

The theological dogmatists are bringing the rain down on their own heads. If the main thrust of religious organization was good fellowship and charity then few, if any, would complain. But the Islamic Crazies want much, much more. Mere charity and good behavior is not nearly enough. One must Submit. For Christians it is not much better. The real religious nut jobs in the realm of Christianity, particularly Protestant Christianity want total commitment in Faith. Faith trumps Works. But goodness and charity only manifest themselves in Works.

ruveyn

Religious Organizations -

Step 1. Believers want to socialize with believers

Step 2. Socializers need to get people wearing badges and reciting pledges.

Step 3, Powervolk see a launching pad for control.

Religion -as opposed to religiuous organization - has nothing to do with any of this.

Same as political liberalism, conservatism etc have NOTHING to do with the parties.

That's great but that still gives no address to the issue that atheism would be much more attractive to people if it didn't simply offer no structure or identity at all. And I won't say that it would be a good idea for atheists to set up 'churches' to tell other atheists what the political motivation of the day should be or how to see life - that would likely be terrible. I guess what I'm getting at, atheists would be perfect for having huge hands-on charitable organizations, stuff of Kiwanis or Masonry type stature, where they dream big, plan big, and bring in talent of all different disciplines in to get community projects done. Be a bit like, how would I think of it, the paladins of humanity who do phenomenal work without a god.

If you could make a secular organization that would teach and disciple people and maybe employ a "head" person to look after members emotional and physical needs. Maybe get together once a week on sunday and do something together to increase morale before the start of the week? Maybe if you gave this to people they wouldn't need church or God. Maybe you could give yourselves a cool name and apply for tax exemption because the "head" of the organization is working for the good of the local community?

The hell you are talking about?

Sometimes I tend to doubt my ability to be a great leader of NT's though. I think my overall idea though would be to reimbue life and culture with rich symbolism, positive and healthy stuff. I probably would try to give more innovation to charitable action - reminders that we're all that we have and that we all need each other, ways to break down celled-off middle class communities and make them somewhat more integrated, keep places where no one knows anyone minimal. Perhaps just building more historical monuments, elevating historical figures but instead of cult-status elevation to where they're made 'saints' or anything that makes them seem less human (which people like - keeps them 'not like me' and outside their personal standards) I'd stress their humanity and the frailties they overcome. Sundays would be absolutely great days just to either have neighborhood block parties, devote it to being a 'have family/friends over for lunch/dinner to remember who they are' and - I think of the things I'd keep from religion the ideas behind this push would be minimal but - they'd have a both very warm/beautiful symbol but additionally a very innocuous one, one emblematic and *just barely* epic enough to stick but not epic enough to be twisted in bizarre or totalitarian ways.

Also, there should be something 'special' or very symbolic done. I do like what Mexico does for Christmas, something like a 10 to 13 day pilgrimage, staying with different neighbors, something like a week and a half of wassailing (though I think three or four days could get the job done). Stuff like that and 'day of the dead' are awesome. Perhaps more religiously secular but very symbolically strong/vibrant versions of these throughout the year. We have both very positive achievements of man and very negative ones, we'd make several days to commemorate historical/period living and dress as well as literature and culture of those periods, we'd have days to celebrate and meditate on humanity's greatest achievements, and - we'd have days to give solemn reflection of humanity's dark and less-than-stellar moments. All of this though with the aim of of human history's lessons snf past to present identity being the real emphasis as well as things like, say - day of the dead - where we all have primal fears of certain things and take days to sort of make light of those or share why they're not to be feared.

I'd like to think all of that seems somewhat reasonable but, I think really the first step would be a strong core of atheist charity - people who are both willing to work side with all types of organizations regardless of their religious affiliations, and who really make an attempt to be theism-blind, to take the highroad in ignoring other people's theism, refraining from criticizing it wherever possible, for the sake of still doing something where it helps humanity to live better (and wherever they like what a religious charity is doing they'll work side by side with them - ignoring any shots across the bow from perhaps the more zealous 10% the way Christians are told to ignore shots from nonbelievers, in a way to let them know that we believe in walking the highroad as well and absorbing that stuff via our character/integrity rather than letting humanity split/fracture itself more). The more seemingly 'saintly' atheists can be in how they live their lives, IMO, the more ludicrous the notional will be that atheism is DeSade'ism.


I really hadn't meant that to be a conversation piece and looking at it now in isolated quotes I could probably phrase it better. The movement, really since the early 20th century, to strip religious influence from as many parts of the public sphere (and, admittedly in the west we've specifically made that much more anti-Judao Christian at the expense of other religions, hoping those other religions will accelerate the fall of the old 'core' values rather than being seen as viable options), that general move and push has essentially been stripping religious symbolism and has attempted to cut out holidays as well or rename them to strip them of their religiosity. The biggest problem with that has been that yes - what atheists/agnostics of this sort stripped was religious, which they didn't want holding tyranny over society, *but* - here's the problem - many of the same people saw religion and symbolism/ritual as part and parcel, ie. that ritual and symbolism were simply religious quackery and that they both were cases of goodbye and good riddence. Symbolism, rituals, organized 'culture' - all of these are unfortunately 'human quackery' and they're a large part of what gives us identity, what makes us feel great about living if we can find those occasions and acts that emphasize devotion to ideals. The 20th century, from a lot of directions, ended up being a war against ideals and standards - where without religion people became even more lost.

What I'm really saying is that the best psychological processes for human emotional health were thrown out by people (the so-called intellectual elite) who were and have been, continue to be actually, such brashly sophomoric thinkers that they can make a huge societal car wreck and walk right past it without even paying it much heed because its not really that big in terms of collateral damage. They're ideologues with truly terrible vision, perhaps well intended but very much loose-cannons.

atheism as a negative position. It is withholding belief in the absence or insufficiency of evidence. It is practical skepticism with regard to the issue of whether this god or that god exists or not.

atheism is simply a state of non-belief. It has nothing definite or positive to offer to anyone.

ruveyn