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Kraichgauer
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27 Oct 2011, 3:18 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I have friends who are Catholic, and while I don't agree with all their theology, I still consider them to to Christians.
My favorite Catholic, though, is Michael Moore, as his love and concern for those without, and his fight for their interest as his response to God's grace, is very exemplary of Christianity in general.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Michael Moore is worth around $50 million, even though he chooses to dress like a bum. So as a humanitarian, his "love and concern for those without" comes up a bit short, especially when you consider that a) he claims to be against capitalism and for spreading the wealth around (how about his wealth? Lead by example!), and that b) he made his millions as a capitalist.

So he's a rich fat cat who has love and concern for those without.

He has $49+ million more than he needs to survive, while others he could help are dying of hunger. So he's easily on the greedy side of the greedy/giving scale.

Quote:
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:23-25


Michael Moore in fact uses his money to help the disadvantaged. That's the whole point of his documentaries, which in fact have drawn attention to the needs of the poor, the under insured, downsized workers, etc. And now, he's lending his support to the Occupy Wall Street movement, speaking up for the 99% who have been left adrift by unregulated capitalism.
And when has Sean Hannity ever cared about those without? As I recall, he and the rest of Fox noise is on this kick so popular among conservatives these days, that if you complain about social and economic inequities between the super rich an the rest of us, you're engaging in class warfare against the poor, poor rich!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Hannity cares about defeating Obama, under whom black unemployment has increased to its highest level ever (16.7%). Also, by every metric you care to name, Obama has destroyed the economy. Protestors shouting at rich executives doesn't do anything, and Obama knows it. He still gets the huge campaign contributions from the very same rich corporations these OWS people he claims to support are protesting! He likes a good rabble, so he keeps stoking it on. Again, HE is the PRESIDENT. HIS policies have hurt these people who are protesting, along with the rest of America. So WHY aren't they protesting HIM?
Call in to Hannity's radio program sometimes. Lemme know when, I'd love to hear it.


The fact of the matter is, Obama had tried to fix the economy, it it was the Republicans who had dug their heels in. Obama, to his discredit, had tried to be a conciliator working with the right. The economy is in the toilet because of unfettered capitalism, and because the Republicans are more interested in siding with big money who they appease with not only tax cuts, but also with cuts in social programs. And now, they want the rest of us to shoulder the tax burden, while the so called job creators are free to create employment - - in Bangladesh.l And yes, this does all go back to Bush.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Looks more like Obama has tried to wreck the economy even further.

Btw, Obama was one of the ones sueing banks when they weren't making these loans to people that couldn't afford them.


Obama is going after the banks that have preyed on consumers, got them to take out loan after loan, then pulled the rug out from under them when they couldn't keep up with payments. Payments that were in fact often altered by greedy, heartless lenders.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the poor, set upon bankers horses**t.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



91
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27 Oct 2011, 5:49 am

Something to lighten the mood:

After getting all of Pope Benedict's luggage loaded into the limo, (and he doesn't travel light), the driver notices the Pope is still standing on the curb. 'Excuse me, Your Holiness,' says the driver, 'Would you please take your seat so we can leave?'

'Well, to tell you the truth,' says the Pope, 'they never let me drive at the Vatican when I was a cardinal, and I'd really like to drive today.'

'I'm sorry, Your Holiness, but I cannot let you do that. I'd lose my job! What if something should happen?' protests the driver, wishing he'd never gone to work that morning.

'Who's going to tell?' says the Pope with a smile.

Reluctantly, the driver gets in the back as the Pope climbs in behind the wheel. The driver quickly regrets his decision when, after exiting the airport, the Pontiff floors it, accelerating the limo to 205 kms. (Remember, the Pope is German.)

'Please slow down, Your Holiness!' pleads the worried driver, but the Pope keeps the pedal to the metal until they hear sirens.

'Oh, dear God, I'm going to lose my license -- and my job!' moans the driver.

The Pope pulls over and rolls down the window as the cop approaches, but the cop takes one look at him, goes back to his motorcycle, and gets on the radio.

'I need to talk to the Chief,' he says to the dispatcher.

The Chief gets on the radio and the cop tells him that he's stopped a limo going 205 kph.

'So bust him,' says the Chief.

'I don't think we want to do that, he's really important,' said the cop.
The Chief exclaimed,' All the more reason!'
'No, I mean really important,' said the cop with a bit of persistence.

The Chief then asked, 'Who do you have there, the mayor?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'A senator?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'The Prime Minister?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'
'Well,' said the Chief, 'who is it?'

Cop: 'I think it's God!'

The Chief is even more puzzled and curious, 'What makes you think it's God?'

Cop: 'His chauffeur is the Pope!'


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Kraichgauer
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27 Oct 2011, 11:07 am

91 wrote:
Something to lighten the mood:

After getting all of Pope Benedict's luggage loaded into the limo, (and he doesn't travel light), the driver notices the Pope is still standing on the curb. 'Excuse me, Your Holiness,' says the driver, 'Would you please take your seat so we can leave?'

'Well, to tell you the truth,' says the Pope, 'they never let me drive at the Vatican when I was a cardinal, and I'd really like to drive today.'

'I'm sorry, Your Holiness, but I cannot let you do that. I'd lose my job! What if something should happen?' protests the driver, wishing he'd never gone to work that morning.

'Who's going to tell?' says the Pope with a smile.

Reluctantly, the driver gets in the back as the Pope climbs in behind the wheel. The driver quickly regrets his decision when, after exiting the airport, the Pontiff floors it, accelerating the limo to 205 kms. (Remember, the Pope is German.)

'Please slow down, Your Holiness!' pleads the worried driver, but the Pope keeps the pedal to the metal until they hear sirens.

'Oh, dear God, I'm going to lose my license -- and my job!' moans the driver.

The Pope pulls over and rolls down the window as the cop approaches, but the cop takes one look at him, goes back to his motorcycle, and gets on the radio.

'I need to talk to the Chief,' he says to the dispatcher.

The Chief gets on the radio and the cop tells him that he's stopped a limo going 205 kph.

'So bust him,' says the Chief.

'I don't think we want to do that, he's really important,' said the cop.
The Chief exclaimed,' All the more reason!'
'No, I mean really important,' said the cop with a bit of persistence.

The Chief then asked, 'Who do you have there, the mayor?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'A senator?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'The Prime Minister?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'
'Well,' said the Chief, 'who is it?'

Cop: 'I think it's God!'

The Chief is even more puzzled and curious, 'What makes you think it's God?'

Cop: 'His chauffeur is the Pope!'


That is indeed funny!

On another matter I had wanted to address; the claim has been thrown around that the Apocryphal books of the Bible such as Maccabees had been thrown out of the Protestant Bible by Luther. This is in fact historically incorrect. Actually, such books were only canonized by Catholicism after the Reformation. Otherwise, if Luther was tossing books out of the Bible, Revelations would have doubtlessly been the first to go, as both Luther and Calvin cast doubt on it's worth as scripture.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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27 Oct 2011, 12:59 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
91 wrote:
Something to lighten the mood:

After getting all of Pope Benedict's luggage loaded into the limo, (and he doesn't travel light), the driver notices the Pope is still standing on the curb. 'Excuse me, Your Holiness,' says the driver, 'Would you please take your seat so we can leave?'

'Well, to tell you the truth,' says the Pope, 'they never let me drive at the Vatican when I was a cardinal, and I'd really like to drive today.'

'I'm sorry, Your Holiness, but I cannot let you do that. I'd lose my job! What if something should happen?' protests the driver, wishing he'd never gone to work that morning.

'Who's going to tell?' says the Pope with a smile.

Reluctantly, the driver gets in the back as the Pope climbs in behind the wheel. The driver quickly regrets his decision when, after exiting the airport, the Pontiff floors it, accelerating the limo to 205 kms. (Remember, the Pope is German.)

'Please slow down, Your Holiness!' pleads the worried driver, but the Pope keeps the pedal to the metal until they hear sirens.

'Oh, dear God, I'm going to lose my license -- and my job!' moans the driver.

The Pope pulls over and rolls down the window as the cop approaches, but the cop takes one look at him, goes back to his motorcycle, and gets on the radio.

'I need to talk to the Chief,' he says to the dispatcher.

The Chief gets on the radio and the cop tells him that he's stopped a limo going 205 kph.

'So bust him,' says the Chief.

'I don't think we want to do that, he's really important,' said the cop.
The Chief exclaimed,' All the more reason!'
'No, I mean really important,' said the cop with a bit of persistence.

The Chief then asked, 'Who do you have there, the mayor?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'A senator?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'The Prime Minister?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'
'Well,' said the Chief, 'who is it?'

Cop: 'I think it's God!'

The Chief is even more puzzled and curious, 'What makes you think it's God?'

Cop: 'His chauffeur is the Pope!'


That is indeed funny!

On another matter I had wanted to address; the claim has been thrown around that the Apocryphal books of the Bible such as Maccabees had been thrown out of the Protestant Bible by Luther. This is in fact historically incorrect. Actually, such books were only canonized by Catholicism after the Reformation. Otherwise, if Luther was tossing books out of the Bible, Revelations would have doubtlessly been the first to go, as both Luther and Calvin cast doubt on it's worth as scripture.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Actually, it's quite correct. No. There were no early councils that endorsed the 66 books Protestants honor. The current canon of Scripture was affirmed at the Council of Rome in 382 under Pope Damasus, which included all and only the seventy-three books Catholics honor today. This canon was repeated at Hippo and at Carthage (A.D. 393 and 397, respectively) and has been repeated ever since.

It was Martin Luther who tossed out the seven books considered canonical since the beginning of Church history. He also rejected the epistle to the Hebrews and the book of Revelation. He also called the epistle of James "an epistle of straw" because James 2:14–26 conflicted with his personal theology on good works. He also added the word (in his German translation) only in Romans 3:20 and Romans 4:15, and he inserted the word alone in Romans 3:28.



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27 Oct 2011, 1:26 pm

Ragtime wrote:
I was recently asked to explain why I am not a Catholic. My response grew and grew, and so I decided to just start this thread with it.

Well, among the biggest reasons are the following.

I find wholly unscriptural their promotion of Mary to "co-redemptrix", so that Jesus AND Mary save us from our sins -- even though Jesus was God, and He died for our sins, and no mention is given in Scripture of Mary playing a part in that redemption. Jesus' Father is clearly mentioned in several scriptures as being God, while Mary is never given a status beyond that of any human true servant of God, nor is she ever depicted in the Bible in anywhere near the very high way in which she is depicted by the Catholic Church. She was honored to give birth to the Messiah, and the bestowing of that honor was not something earned -- who could earn such an incredible thing, when the Bible says that even our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's sight? (Is 64:6 "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.") Also, Jer 17:9 -- "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" The Bible is clear throughout that man's goodness amounts to little at best, and is far outshadowed by his evil.

And this problem with unscriptural human deity doesn't end there, by any means. There is praying to the dead, as well. Again, Scripture is clear that we are to pray to God, and that God is a very "jealous God" (mentioned six times in the Bible). Also, prayer to the dead is expressly forbidden (Deut 18:10-12 -- "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD; because of these same detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you.")

Also, works-based salvation is taught, yet Eph 2:8-9 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast." And Gal 3:13-14 says, "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.' He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." Yet, salvation is taught by the Catholic Church to be re-lost and re-gained umpteen times by the works of the sinner. Futher on that same point, "vain repetitions" (such as 20 "Hail Marys" / "Our Fathers") are told us by Christ to avoid (Matt 6:7 "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking"), yet these are prescribed under the Catholic Church.

The pope also dispenses God's grace in Catholicism. Again, Scripture is clear that we pray to God directly, and from Him directly we receive forgiveness and salvation, due solely to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice on the cross.

Also, 1 Peter 3:18 says, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit." Yet, in the eucharist, Christ is said to die again each time.

There's also "And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven" (Matt 23:9).

I also take issue with the Crusades and the Inquisition, as well as with the Catholic Church's multi-century record of hatred of God's Chosen People, the Jews, all the way through the Nazi era, where they sat idly by while millions were slaughtered.

But I know of many admirable Catholics, whom I have no doubt whatsoever are Saved -- and therefore Saved Scripturally, which is through Christ's Grace alone. Sean Hannity is my favorite Catholic -- and when one listens to him talk about his faith, it is clear that he is a Christian who, in his actual beliefs, is not really Catholic. It's the system he's in, and he doesn't want to go through the bother of merely changing that label. I have seen him chafe, though, at the thought of the Pope supposedly being over him in authority.

However, as briefly touched on above, the leadership of the Catholic Church is deliberately perverse in its reading of Scripture.


You have just demonstrated that you are utterly and completely clueless as to what Catholics believe or why they believe it and this thread ticks me off because it is effectively nothing more than another exuse for spreading inaccurate generalizations about what the Catholic church teaches. Just how many theologically educated Catholics did you talk to before deciding what we all believe? I would have to guess ZERO, and if you did talk to any, you did not actually listen, because your mind was already made up.

Your statements are wholly INACCURATE as to what the church teaches, and I am tired of fighting this crap. Practice your faith however you want but leave MY faith out of it. You won't see me posting "why I'm not a Pentacostal/Baptist/Mormon/???" Because I'm not foolish enough to believe that I actually understand the tenants of a denomintion I do not study in, and you should not be so presumptuous, either.

If you are one of those who grew up in Catholicism and rejected it, I am sorry that you received such a poor education about it while you were in it. It is still wrong information. STOP SPREADING IT.

A friend of mine recently converted from Protestant to Catholicism and had to bear with the loss of close friend who truly believed my friend was now in the hands of the devil, when my friend was finally feeling a closeness to Jesus that had eluded her most of her life, despite her own father being a preacher. Her father understood, but her less informed friend could not grasp it. These misconceptions are DESTRUCTIVE.


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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 27 Oct 2011, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraichgauer
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27 Oct 2011, 1:39 pm

Bataar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
91 wrote:
Something to lighten the mood:

After getting all of Pope Benedict's luggage loaded into the limo, (and he doesn't travel light), the driver notices the Pope is still standing on the curb. 'Excuse me, Your Holiness,' says the driver, 'Would you please take your seat so we can leave?'

'Well, to tell you the truth,' says the Pope, 'they never let me drive at the Vatican when I was a cardinal, and I'd really like to drive today.'

'I'm sorry, Your Holiness, but I cannot let you do that. I'd lose my job! What if something should happen?' protests the driver, wishing he'd never gone to work that morning.

'Who's going to tell?' says the Pope with a smile.

Reluctantly, the driver gets in the back as the Pope climbs in behind the wheel. The driver quickly regrets his decision when, after exiting the airport, the Pontiff floors it, accelerating the limo to 205 kms. (Remember, the Pope is German.)

'Please slow down, Your Holiness!' pleads the worried driver, but the Pope keeps the pedal to the metal until they hear sirens.

'Oh, dear God, I'm going to lose my license -- and my job!' moans the driver.

The Pope pulls over and rolls down the window as the cop approaches, but the cop takes one look at him, goes back to his motorcycle, and gets on the radio.

'I need to talk to the Chief,' he says to the dispatcher.

The Chief gets on the radio and the cop tells him that he's stopped a limo going 205 kph.

'So bust him,' says the Chief.

'I don't think we want to do that, he's really important,' said the cop.
The Chief exclaimed,' All the more reason!'
'No, I mean really important,' said the cop with a bit of persistence.

The Chief then asked, 'Who do you have there, the mayor?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'A senator?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'

Chief: 'The Prime Minister?'

Cop: 'Bigger.'
'Well,' said the Chief, 'who is it?'

Cop: 'I think it's God!'

The Chief is even more puzzled and curious, 'What makes you think it's God?'

Cop: 'His chauffeur is the Pope!'


That is indeed funny!

On another matter I had wanted to address; the claim has been thrown around that the Apocryphal books of the Bible such as Maccabees had been thrown out of the Protestant Bible by Luther. This is in fact historically incorrect. Actually, such books were only canonized by Catholicism after the Reformation. Otherwise, if Luther was tossing books out of the Bible, Revelations would have doubtlessly been the first to go, as both Luther and Calvin cast doubt on it's worth as scripture.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Actually, it's quite correct. No. There were no early councils that endorsed the 66 books Protestants honor. The current canon of Scripture was affirmed at the Council of Rome in 382 under Pope Damasus, which included all and only the seventy-three books Catholics honor today. This canon was repeated at Hippo and at Carthage (A.D. 393 and 397, respectively) and has been repeated ever since.

It was Martin Luther who tossed out the seven books considered canonical since the beginning of Church history. He also rejected the epistle to the Hebrews and the book of Revelation. He also called the epistle of James "an epistle of straw" because James 2:14–26 conflicted with his personal theology on good works. He also added the word (in his German translation) only in Romans 3:20 and Romans 4:15, and he inserted the word alone in Romans 3:28.


I'm actually going by what I was taught in school. Are you certain about that?

And Luther in fact reconciled himself with James later on, realizing that it promotes the theology of works as the response to God's gift of faith.

Catholicism had in fact misrepresented Lutheran theology for a very long time, making it sound a great deal like Arminianism (salvation arising through the single act of faith, as I understand it). In fact, Lutheran theology has always been about salvation having been earned for us by Christ's death and resurrection. As fallen human beings, we are incapable of achieving salvation by our own power, and thus it's a gift given to us through the written and spoken word, and through the sacraments, which are physical manifestations of the word. Our salvation is entirely in God's hands, and is a life long journey of growing in faith, during which it's possible for us to fall from grace. An indication of being in God's grace is how we reciprocate God's love by loving and caring for other people. In fact Luther once observed: "By faith alone, but faith is never alone."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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27 Oct 2011, 2:01 pm

91 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Prayer to anyone else never exists in a righteous context in all of Scripture.


Nonsense; 1 Timothy 2:5 says that we ought to pray for one another. That we should pray for our king's and queen's; that God might intercede on our behalf. The dead also engage with the living for example in Matt 17:3 where Elijah and Moses talk to Christ.


The command to abstain from relating with the dead is a command for man. Jesus, being the God who gave the command in the first place, is not bound by it, just as He mentions He is "Lord also of the Sabbath", and thus can treat it as He wishes.

91 wrote:
Paul encourages us to pray for each other all the time Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1


I know he does.

91 wrote:
and if the Protestants had not cut out Maccabees you would see clear instances of prayer to the dead. We ask the dead to pray for us; Mary included.


I don't read Maccabees as Scripture; I accept the canon. Also, why would the dead need to pray for us, and what good would it do beyond the living praying for us? (...the latter of which is Scriptural, and very much so.) Christ is our intercessor. (Romans 8; Hebrews 7) And no intercessor among the dead is ever mentioned.



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27 Oct 2011, 2:08 pm

91 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
That's why such "layers of middle management", if you will, are expressly forbidden in Scripture


The passage you listed does not expressly forbid power within the Church, it is a statement that leaders should be servants. Now I will admit that Catholics do not always get it right but neither does anyone. The authority of Peter is well established; Matthew (16:17‑19), Luke (22:32)and John (21:15‑17). It is however within the apostolic tradition that you will encounter the Bishops and the Papacy etc.


There is no spiritual authority among men. None. In Scripture there are teachers only. No one is spiritually accountable to a certain other who is set in a certain office to be accounted to. That went away when God tore the veil of the Temple in half from the top to the bottom (Matt 27:51), removing the holy barrier between God's dwelling in the Holy of Holies and the people -- signifying that there no longer was and no longer needed to be a barrier between God and man, as when God created the Hebrew priesthood to intercede for the people of Israel. Jesus IS our priest, and the only one we need!



Last edited by Ragtime on 27 Oct 2011, 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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27 Oct 2011, 2:09 pm

Ragtime wrote:
91 wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
That's why such "layers of middle management", if you will, are expressly forbidden in Scripture


The passage you listed does not expressly forbid power within the Church, it is a statement that leaders should be servants. Now I will admit that Catholics do not always get it right but neither does anyone. The authority of Peter is well established; Matthew (16:17‑19), Luke (22:32)and John (21:15‑17). It is however within the apostolic tradition that you will encounter the Bishops and the Papacy etc.


The is no spiritual authority among men. None in Scripture. There are teachers only. No one is spiritually accountable to a certain other who is set in a certain office to be accounted to. That went away went God tore the veil of the Temple in half from the top to the bottom, signifying that there no longer was and no longer needed to be a barrier between God and man, as when God created the Hebrew priesthood to intercede for the people of Israel. Jesus is the only priest we need!


Correct.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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27 Oct 2011, 2:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
(Sigh) While Luther in his later years had written some very ugly things about Jews, he never had those things put into action, nor did any other Protestant religious or civil leader. Considering that the worst history of Antisemitism was one of violent action, Luther hardly belongs anywhere the top of the list. And while Luther's hateful writings against Jews was used by the Nazis to justify their position, those writings had almost been forgotten till Hitler and friends had dug them up. In no way do any of these Antisemitic writings have any influence on modern American Lutheranism.

And to give you a little history; Luther wrote those things only in later life, after he had more than one catastrophic illness which had left his behavior and thinking erratic. A very good argument for organic brain damage can be made.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That still could have affected public sentiment at the time soon after the writings, Numerous past things do not have influence today. I am still looking at other sources concerning this., but they are all books unfortunately and I hope my library has them.

I still stand by my two other statements about the Evangelicals and the Holocaust reference.


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27 Oct 2011, 3:02 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:
A Xtian forum would be completely peaceful.

I defend the Catholics thus all religiosity is ridiculous and the Catholics are no worse than an other
and since in my experience they are less annoying than Protestants and Evangelicals I like them more.


I am a Methodsit that makes me Protestant what you do not know about the methodist church is not it is more popular then the babtist church will openly accept gays lesbiens ect in the church nor do we beleive that being gay will send you to hell plus I am bi-gender so I like the methodist church we are the most modern church as well.



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27 Oct 2011, 3:26 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I have friends who are Catholic, and while I don't agree with all their theology, I still consider them to to Christians.
My favorite Catholic, though, is Michael Moore, as his love and concern for those without, and his fight for their interest as his response to God's grace, is very exemplary of Christianity in general.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Michael Moore is worth around $50 million, even though he chooses to dress like a bum. So as a humanitarian, his "love and concern for those without" comes up a bit short, especially when you consider that a) he claims to be against capitalism and for spreading the wealth around (how about his wealth? Lead by example!), and that b) he made his millions as a capitalist.

So he's a rich fat cat who has love and concern for those without.

He has $49+ million more than he needs to survive, while others he could help are dying of hunger. So he's easily on the greedy side of the greedy/giving scale.

Quote:
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:23-25


Michael Moore in fact uses his money to help the disadvantaged. That's the whole point of his documentaries, which in fact have drawn attention to the needs of the poor, the under insured, downsized workers, etc. And now, he's lending his support to the Occupy Wall Street movement, speaking up for the 99% who have been left adrift by unregulated capitalism.
And when has Sean Hannity ever cared about those without? As I recall, he and the rest of Fox noise is on this kick so popular among conservatives these days, that if you complain about social and economic inequities between the super rich an the rest of us, you're engaging in class warfare against the poor, poor rich!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Hannity cares about defeating Obama, under whom black unemployment has increased to its highest level ever (16.7%). Also, by every metric you care to name, Obama has destroyed the economy. Protestors shouting at rich executives doesn't do anything, and Obama knows it. He still gets the huge campaign contributions from the very same rich corporations these OWS people he claims to support are protesting! He likes a good rabble, so he keeps stoking it on. Again, HE is the PRESIDENT. HIS policies have hurt these people who are protesting, along with the rest of America. So WHY aren't they protesting HIM?
Call in to Hannity's radio program sometimes. Lemme know when, I'd love to hear it.


The fact of the matter is, Obama had tried to fix the economy, it it was the Republicans who had dug their heels in. Obama, to his discredit, had tried to be a conciliator working with the right. The economy is in the toilet because of unfettered capitalism, and because the Republicans are more interested in siding with big money who they appease with not only tax cuts, but also with cuts in social programs. And now, they want the rest of us to shoulder the tax burden, while the so called job creators are free to create employment - - in Bangladesh.l And yes, this does all go back to Bush.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Looks more like Obama has tried to wreck the economy even further.

Btw, Obama was one of the ones sueing banks when they weren't making these loans to people that couldn't afford them.


Obama is going after the banks that have preyed on consumers, got them to take out loan after loan, then pulled the rug out from under them when they couldn't keep up with payments. Payments that were in fact often altered by greedy, heartless lenders.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the poor, set upon bankers horses**t.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Obama was one of the people that was sueing banks for not making those loans.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=431_1314157066



DW_a_mom
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27 Oct 2011, 5:03 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I have friends who are Catholic, and while I don't agree with all their theology, I still consider them to to Christians.
My favorite Catholic, though, is Michael Moore, as his love and concern for those without, and his fight for their interest as his response to God's grace, is very exemplary of Christianity in general.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Michael Moore is worth around $50 million, even though he chooses to dress like a bum. So as a humanitarian, his "love and concern for those without" comes up a bit short, especially when you consider that a) he claims to be against capitalism and for spreading the wealth around (how about his wealth? Lead by example!), and that b) he made his millions as a capitalist.

So he's a rich fat cat who has love and concern for those without.

He has $49+ million more than he needs to survive, while others he could help are dying of hunger. So he's easily on the greedy side of the greedy/giving scale.

Quote:
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:23-25


Michael Moore in fact uses his money to help the disadvantaged. That's the whole point of his documentaries, which in fact have drawn attention to the needs of the poor, the under insured, downsized workers, etc. And now, he's lending his support to the Occupy Wall Street movement, speaking up for the 99% who have been left adrift by unregulated capitalism.
And when has Sean Hannity ever cared about those without? As I recall, he and the rest of Fox noise is on this kick so popular among conservatives these days, that if you complain about social and economic inequities between the super rich an the rest of us, you're engaging in class warfare against the poor, poor rich!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Hannity cares about defeating Obama, under whom black unemployment has increased to its highest level ever (16.7%). Also, by every metric you care to name, Obama has destroyed the economy. Protestors shouting at rich executives doesn't do anything, and Obama knows it. He still gets the huge campaign contributions from the very same rich corporations these OWS people he claims to support are protesting! He likes a good rabble, so he keeps stoking it on. Again, HE is the PRESIDENT. HIS policies have hurt these people who are protesting, along with the rest of America. So WHY aren't they protesting HIM?
Call in to Hannity's radio program sometimes. Lemme know when, I'd love to hear it.


The fact of the matter is, Obama had tried to fix the economy, it it was the Republicans who had dug their heels in. Obama, to his discredit, had tried to be a conciliator working with the right. The economy is in the toilet because of unfettered capitalism, and because the Republicans are more interested in siding with big money who they appease with not only tax cuts, but also with cuts in social programs. And now, they want the rest of us to shoulder the tax burden, while the so called job creators are free to create employment - - in Bangladesh.l And yes, this does all go back to Bush.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Looks more like Obama has tried to wreck the economy even further.

Btw, Obama was one of the ones sueing banks when they weren't making these loans to people that couldn't afford them.


Obama is going after the banks that have preyed on consumers, got them to take out loan after loan, then pulled the rug out from under them when they couldn't keep up with payments. Payments that were in fact often altered by greedy, heartless lenders.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the poor, set upon bankers horses**t.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Obama was one of the people that was sueing banks for not making those loans.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=431_1314157066


And those loans are NOT the heart of the mortgage crisis, no matter how much you would like to believe they are. Those loans only tumbled because the rest of the market tumbled.

I've given my examples in many other threads and I have no desire to repeat myself over and over. Note this: I have yet to see a single professional who actually accounts for the fall out of this crap blame low income loan incentive programs. DROP IN THE BUCKET compared to the bad loans that were created out of GREED. My co-worker worked in lending during the high flying years, and can tell tales that blow your socks off.

Just because the truth doesn't make splashy headlines doesn't mean it isn't still the truth. Talk to the people who WORK in this stuff, we're almost all on the same page.

And Ragtime ... you've really ticked me off spreading the same old same old miss-truths about the faith I belong to. I can understand that it is hard for everyone to know everything; I readily admit all the holes in what I know; but when people claim certainty about information they only have partial access to, and then use that to make prejudiced and judgmental decisions (not to say you do, but that is what the miss-information leads to far too often, and I've had to deal with way too much of it in my life), it is destructive. I am really tired of people contributing to those negative patterns and not taking responsibility for their part in all that happens because of it. Why can't you just talk about what you believe and why you believe it? Why does the conversation have to involve a broad attack on someone else's faith?


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27 Oct 2011, 5:58 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I have friends who are Catholic, and while I don't agree with all their theology, I still consider them to to Christians.
My favorite Catholic, though, is Michael Moore, as his love and concern for those without, and his fight for their interest as his response to God's grace, is very exemplary of Christianity in general.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Michael Moore is worth around $50 million, even though he chooses to dress like a bum. So as a humanitarian, his "love and concern for those without" comes up a bit short, especially when you consider that a) he claims to be against capitalism and for spreading the wealth around (how about his wealth? Lead by example!), and that b) he made his millions as a capitalist.

So he's a rich fat cat who has love and concern for those without.

He has $49+ million more than he needs to survive, while others he could help are dying of hunger. So he's easily on the greedy side of the greedy/giving scale.

Quote:
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!” The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

Mark 10:23-25


Michael Moore in fact uses his money to help the disadvantaged. That's the whole point of his documentaries, which in fact have drawn attention to the needs of the poor, the under insured, downsized workers, etc. And now, he's lending his support to the Occupy Wall Street movement, speaking up for the 99% who have been left adrift by unregulated capitalism.
And when has Sean Hannity ever cared about those without? As I recall, he and the rest of Fox noise is on this kick so popular among conservatives these days, that if you complain about social and economic inequities between the super rich an the rest of us, you're engaging in class warfare against the poor, poor rich!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Hannity cares about defeating Obama, under whom black unemployment has increased to its highest level ever (16.7%). Also, by every metric you care to name, Obama has destroyed the economy. Protestors shouting at rich executives doesn't do anything, and Obama knows it. He still gets the huge campaign contributions from the very same rich corporations these OWS people he claims to support are protesting! He likes a good rabble, so he keeps stoking it on. Again, HE is the PRESIDENT. HIS policies have hurt these people who are protesting, along with the rest of America. So WHY aren't they protesting HIM?
Call in to Hannity's radio program sometimes. Lemme know when, I'd love to hear it.


The fact of the matter is, Obama had tried to fix the economy, it it was the Republicans who had dug their heels in. Obama, to his discredit, had tried to be a conciliator working with the right. The economy is in the toilet because of unfettered capitalism, and because the Republicans are more interested in siding with big money who they appease with not only tax cuts, but also with cuts in social programs. And now, they want the rest of us to shoulder the tax burden, while the so called job creators are free to create employment - - in Bangladesh.l And yes, this does all go back to Bush.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Looks more like Obama has tried to wreck the economy even further.

Btw, Obama was one of the ones sueing banks when they weren't making these loans to people that couldn't afford them.


Obama is going after the banks that have preyed on consumers, got them to take out loan after loan, then pulled the rug out from under them when they couldn't keep up with payments. Payments that were in fact often altered by greedy, heartless lenders.
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy into the poor, set upon bankers horses**t.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Obama was one of the people that was sueing banks for not making those loans.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=431_1314157066


What DW_a_mom wrote, as she obviously has a better grasp on this whole mess than either of us do.
Figures the Republicans would try to pin the economy on the poor.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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27 Oct 2011, 8:28 pm

DW's posts are dead on correct.

Ragtime wrote:
The command to abstain from relating with the dead is a command for man. Jesus, being the God who gave the command in the first place, is not bound by it, just as He mentions He is "Lord also of the Sabbath", and thus can treat it as He wishes.


Christ was both God and man. He states the Sabbath is made for man not man for the Sabbath. It is not just him who can treat it as he wishes. The command relating to the dead does not say one cannot pray to the dead. The command is one in line with a great deal of OT law relating to the use of divination and necromancy. If Christ had sinned as a man, then he would have sinned; but he did not sin in his action, he was blameless.

Ragtime wrote:
I don't read Maccabees as Scripture; I accept the canon. Also, why would the dead need to pray for us, and what good would it do beyond the living praying for us? (...the latter of which is Scriptural, and very much so.) Christ is our intercessor. (Romans 8; Hebrews 7) And no intercessor among the dead is ever mentioned.


Can you keep your red herrings to one per paragraph.... it seems you just want to spill out your misinformation as fast as possible and gives me no sense you want a discussion. Bataar has already more than answered you on Maccabees. At this point you have been given sufficient reason to reexamine your assumptions. As for the intercession of the Saints and dead: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-inte ... the-saints

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]). St Augustine

Ragtime wrote:
There is no spiritual authority among men. None. In Scripture there are teachers only. No one is spiritually accountable to a certain other who is set in a certain office to be accounted to.


Really no spiritual authority among men?

'These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.' Titus 2:15

Anyone who has studied the life of St. Ignatius the Bishop of Antioch and student of John the Apostle cannot escape the conclusions that many protestant views on spiritual authority are misguided. We have in the very first generation after the Apostles the establishment of the Bishops, the emphasis on the real presence etc.


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28 Oct 2011, 9:44 am

To me, all this disagreement on the fine points of different Christian sects' theology is just so much blathering.