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ruveyn
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16 Nov 2011, 6:18 pm

Abgal64 wrote:
the French Revolution is one of the most wonderful achievements in human history in my mind.

.


The French Revolution produced 20,000 dead during the Terror and unleashed Napoleon on the world. Are you still happy with that Revolution?

Vivre La France!

ruveyn



DC
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16 Nov 2011, 6:20 pm

Abgal64 wrote:

I do not think that Europeans gave us nothing: The Romans were more advanced in civil engineering than anything until the Inka started to rival them in road building and plumbing; the British gave us the Industrial Revolution; the French Revolution is one of the most wonderful achievements in human history in my mind.

But frankly, due to the reasons I have stated, I simply little sympathy for the current European powers when they get into trouble and I see no reason why I should change my views.



Why yes, Rhodesia is doing so much better now that it has thrown off the evil British Imperialist yolk.

Oh wait...

:roll:



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16 Nov 2011, 6:22 pm

DC wrote:
Why yes, Rhodesia is doing so much better now that it has thrown off the evil British Imperialist yolk.

Oh wait...

:roll:


Indeed! And what about the vast Norwegian, Danish, Finnish and Swedish former empires! One can't feel sympathy with those now they're being...

...Oh.



ICY
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16 Nov 2011, 6:23 pm

I like the peaceful co-existence between European states we currently enjoy compared to the 19th century, even with Pax Britannica in place for a time. Although individual European countries have almost entirely lost their colonies (Britain still has a few overseas territories for example), I doubt I would benefit from either their continued existence or from living at a time when they were maintained.

I also don't share the pessimistic shown in some of the above posts. While Europe has lost much of its power, it is still not a region to be ignored. Britain and France, despite current financial difficulties, still wish to be able to project military power globally. Germany is still an economic power, ranked 4th largest economy in world in terms of gross domestic product in 2010 according to the World Bank as shown here http://siteresources.worldbank.org/DATA ... es/GDP.pdf.



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16 Nov 2011, 6:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Abgal64 wrote:
the French Revolution is one of the most wonderful achievements in human history in my mind.

.


The French Revolution produced 20,000 dead during the Terror and unleashed Napoleon on the world. Are you still happy with that Revolution?

Vivre La France!

ruveyn


They did sack Rome and bump off the pope though, give them some credit. ;)



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16 Nov 2011, 6:36 pm

ICY wrote:
I like the peaceful co-existence between European states we currently enjoy compared to the 19th century, even with Pax Britannica in place for a time. Although individual European countries have almost entirely lost their colonies (Britain still has a few overseas territories for example)


Most of those are self-governing.

Gibraltar, for instance, is a tiny territory of 30,000 people who have, almost to a man, woman and child, determinedly wish to stay British. The referendums in 1967 and 2002 speak for themselves - 99% voted in favour of maintaining their links with the UK.

Bermuda, Britain's largest overseas territory is essentially completely independent with Britain only really remaining responsible for defence and international affairs.

Most of the other overseas territories are either too small, based in remote locations, do not wish for independence (they'd have far more costs and very few benefits), are menaced by hostile neighbours or are being used as military bases.

The combined population of Britain's overseas territories is under 200,000 people - i.e. about 0.3% of the population of the UK itself. None of the overseas territories are integrated with Britain.

France has more populous overseas territories, many of which are integrated to a greater or lesser extent with France. Five of them are considered fully part of France. 2.68 million people live in France's overseas departments and territories, making up 4% of the whole population of France and Territories.



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16 Nov 2011, 7:06 pm

Tequila wrote:
ICY wrote:
I like the peaceful co-existence between European states we currently enjoy compared to the 19th century, even with Pax Britannica in place for a time. Although individual European countries have almost entirely lost their colonies (Britain still has a few overseas territories for example)


Most of those are self-governing.

Gibraltar, for instance, is a tiny territory of 30,000 people who have, almost to a man, woman and child, determinedly wish to stay British. The referendums in 1967 and 2002 speak for themselves - 99% voted in favour of maintaining their links with the UK.

Bermuda, Britain's largest overseas territory is essentially completely independent with Britain only really remaining responsible for defence and international affairs.

Most of the other overseas territories are either too small, based in remote locations, do not wish for independence (they'd have far more costs and very few benefits), are menaced by hostile neighbours or are being used as military bases.

The combined population of Britain's overseas territories is under 200,000 people - i.e. about 0.3% of the population of the UK itself. None of the overseas territories are integrated with Britain.

France has more populous overseas territories, many of which are integrated to a greater or lesser extent with France. Five of them are considered fully part of France. 2.68 million people live in France's overseas departments and territories, making up 4% of the whole population of France and Territories.


No offence to the inhabitants of the UK Overseas Territories you cite, but it doesn’t compare to ruling parts of North America (and a tiny part of South America at one point), Asia, Africa and Oceania as far as the power they give the ruling nation.



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16 Nov 2011, 7:07 pm

Well, if we hadn't have done it the Germans would have. ;)



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16 Nov 2011, 8:27 pm

Tequila wrote:
Get stuffed. What happened 200 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with the Europeans alive today - hell, even most Germans alive today had absolutely no part in the Nazi years.
Just because someone was not alive when something happen does not mean that they benefited from it: Are you saying that no one alive has benefited from the T'ang invention of printing or Ignaz Semmelweis's sanitation practices? Are you saying that James Watt has nothing to do with Britain's current stage in the world? For that matter, are you saying that the Palestinian-Isreali conflict has nothing to do with Adolf Hitler?
Tequila wrote:
And we'll not mention the fact that many Africans themselves were involved in the slave trade, shall we; or the fact that India and many other colonies massively benefitted from Britain's presence there?
I never denied that most precolonial African states were involved in the slave trade but their slavery bared a far closer resemblance to Pacific Northwest Coast people's slavery or Mediterranean slavery in Classical Antiquity; see the Kouroukan Fouga, the basic law of the Mali Empire, for one example. And the great elective monarchy of Nri banned slavery in the Middle Ages. Subsahelian African slavery was generally from being a war captive or from debt; it was not for being of an imaginary conception known as "race."

How did India benefit from the British Raj? During the terminal 17th century, the Mughals sold ships to Europeans, they had better rockets and guns than the Europeans and they had a far more peaceful society. The British took away India's ability to be self-sufficient and prevented the Indians from developing their industries. Why did the British not ally with Mughal India, the way the Song Chinese and the Chola Empire did in the High Middle Ages, or treat them benevolently, as the Mauryans did to the people of Kalinga, or protect them from invading armies, as the Ming Chinese did with Korea when the Japanese first invaded?
Tequila wrote:
Some colonies weren't so lucky, though - especially ones run by the Belgians, say - but the world is in a massively better place because Britannia did rule those waves.

So take the chip off your shoulder and wise up.
Explain to me how it had to be Britain instead of Song China, the Mali Empire or the Indus Valley Civilization, to industrialize first. And why do you think the cosmopolitan and tolerant Malians, the highly educated Song Chinese or the peaceful people of the Indus Valley Civilization would be worse than Britain as a dominant world culture?


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ICY
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17 Nov 2011, 7:24 am

I’d like to coin a new term: Former Colonist Syndrome

Definition: The inability to discuss European history without preoccupation with former colonies of European nations. In particular the need to defend colonialism and the treatment of native peoples by a person’s own nation from those believed to be critical of the home nation.



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17 Nov 2011, 7:33 am

ICY wrote:
I’d like to coin a new term: Former Colonist Syndrome

Definition: The inability to discuss European history without preoccupation with former colonies of European nations. In particular the need to defend colonialism and the treatment of native peoples by a person’s own nation from those believed to be critical of the home nation.


Perhaps because they are.

And Abgal64? That computer you type your bile on exists, in part, due to colonialism. Live in a Western country? It was created or influenced by colonialism. In fact, almost everything about the modern world we live in today is shaped, in some way or form, by colonialism and its effects and after-effects.

So you can take your attempt at guilt-tripping and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.



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17 Nov 2011, 7:50 am

Tequila wrote:
Get stuffed. What happened 200 years ago has absolutely nothing to do with the Europeans alive today - hell, even most Germans alive today had absolutely no part in the Nazi years. And we'll not mention the fact that many Africans themselves were involved in the slave trade, shall we;


probably best not to, as it's a somewhat asinine argument to attempt to mitigate the role of white europeans in the slave trade by implicating africans. i don't even think we need to discuss this further.

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or the fact that India and many other colonies massively benefitted from Britain's presence there?


not according to ghandi or the majority of his contemporaries in early 20th century india.


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Tequila
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17 Nov 2011, 8:08 am

peebo wrote:
as it's a somewhat asinine argument to attempt to mitigate the role of white europeans in the slave trade by implicating africans.


Or the fact that, er, they're still doing it when Britain was the first to abolish it?

We've grown up; they haven't and a lot of them still behave like savages. Simples.

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not according to ghandi or the majority of his contemporaries in early 20th century india.


The struggle for India's independence did not reflect well on the British, I agree with that. That said, India benefitted from the infrastructure that the British installed in their country. We're not Belgians, after all. ;)



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17 Nov 2011, 8:11 am

Oh, and if we'd hadn't had the Empire, at best, the war would have lasted longer than it had and at worst we'd be speaking German.



ICY
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17 Nov 2011, 9:30 am

Tequila wrote:
ICY wrote:
I’d like to coin a new term: Former Colonist Syndrome

Definition: The inability to discuss European history without preoccupation with former colonies of European nations. In particular the need to defend colonialism and the treatment of native peoples by a person’s own nation from those believed to be critical of the home nation.


Perhaps because they are.

And Abgal64? That computer you type your bile on exists, in part, due to colonialism. Live in a Western country? It was created or influenced by colonialism. In fact, almost everything about the modern world we live in today is shaped, in some way or form, by colonialism and its effects and after-effects.

So you can take your attempt at guilt-tripping and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.


First point

I merely mention the UK Overseas Territories, with no mention of my view on their continued status or system of government and you reply with this.

Tequila wrote:
ICY wrote:
I like the peaceful co-existence between European states we currently enjoy compared to the 19th century, even with Pax Britannica in place for a time. Although individual European countries have almost entirely lost their colonies (Britain still has a few overseas territories for example)


Most of those are self-governing.

Gibraltar, for instance, is a tiny territory of 30,000 people who have, almost to a man, woman and child, determinedly wish to stay British. The referendums in 1967 and 2002 speak for themselves - 99% voted in favour of maintaining their links with the UK.

Bermuda, Britain's largest overseas territory is essentially completely independent with Britain only really remaining responsible for defence and international affairs.

Most of the other overseas territories are either too small, based in remote locations, do not wish for independence (they'd have far more costs and very few benefits), are menaced by hostile neighbours or are being used as military bases.

The combined population of Britain's overseas territories is under 200,000 people - i.e. about 0.3% of the population of the UK itself. None of the overseas territories are integrated with Britain.

France has more populous overseas territories, many of which are integrated to a greater or lesser extent with France. Five of them are considered fully part of France. 2.68 million people live in France's overseas departments and territories, making up 4% of the whole population of France and Territories.


Second point

When you’re making posts like the one below, for you to use bile as an adjective as you did seems hypocritical.

Tequila wrote:
peebo wrote:
as it's a somewhat asinine argument to attempt to mitigate the role of white europeans in the slave trade by implicating africans.


Or the fact that, er, they're still doing it when Britain was the first to abolish it?

We've grown up; they haven't and a lot of them still behave like savages. Simples.

Quote:
not according to ghandi or the majority of his contemporaries in early 20th century india.


The struggle for India's independence did not reflect well on the British, I agree with that. That said, India benefitted from the infrastructure that the British installed in their country. We're not Belgians, after all. ;)


Third point

Regarding your last line in the first post of yours I quote, I can see your British stiff upper lip is in full effect :lmao: .



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17 Nov 2011, 9:36 am

ruveyn wrote:
Abgal64 wrote:
the French Revolution is one of the most wonderful achievements in human history in my mind.

.


The French Revolution produced 20,000 dead during the Terror and unleashed Napoleon on the world. Are you still happy with that Revolution?

Vivre La France!

ruveyn
It provided the framework for the US constitution.

Bang!


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