So, what did happen in that basket?
I think the miracle would be more impressive if it turned out not to be supernatural
that people with extra fish and loaves where adding them to the basket.
a sort of parable of the surplus we would have if we shared rather than horded.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
My guess is the time traveler from the future who helped him provided him with nano-robots capable of utilizing subatomic quantum forces to create matter out of nothing, thus building larger and larger particles until an element is created, and eventually, food
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
I believe Angels of the Lord flow out of J.C.'s a** and went about the country side scoffing up extra bread and fish.
ruveyn
that people with extra fish and loaves where adding them to the basket.
a sort of parable of the surplus we would have if we shared rather than horded.
I think it was clearly supernatural. Sharing is not a miracle in this regard. This is straight from Wikipedia:
"The Feeding of the 5,000
This is also known as the "miracle of the five loaves and two fish" given that the Gospel of John reports that five small barley loaves and two small fish supplied by a boy were used by Jesus to feed a multitude.
According to the Gospels, when Jesus heard that John the Baptist had been killed, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place near Bethsaida.
The crowds followed Jesus on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick. As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."
Jesus replied, "They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat."
"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered.
"Bring them here to me," he said.
Jesus directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
The Feeding of the 4,000
This appears in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, is also known as the "miracle of the seven loaves and fishes" given that the Gospel of Matthew refers to seven loaves and a few small fish used by Jesus to feed a multitude.
The Church of the Multiplication in Tabgha is the site where some Christians believe the miracle to have taken place.
According to the Gospels, a large crowd had gathered and was following Jesus. Jesus called his disciples to him and said:
"I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way."
His disciples answered:
"Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?"
"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.
"Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."
"Jesus told the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people. They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was four thousand, besides women and children. After Jesus had sent the crowd away, he got into the boat and went to the vicinity of Magadan."
I know the feeling. Such an amazing secret seems so tantalizing. What would you really expect to see, though? Loaves of bread and fish that continually regenerate when pieces are taken from them? A swirling vortex or bright light? A tiny grocery store? Would any of those sights be acceptable?
What if what you saw was decidedly less awesome?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_qRAH6Xnhs[/youtube]
When it comes to such magic, "decidedly less awesome" is much more likely.
_________________
Waltur the Walrus Slayer,
Militant Asantist.
"BLASPHEMER!! !! !! !!" (according to AngelRho)
I know the feeling. Such an amazing secret seems so tantalizing. What would you really expect to see, though? Loaves of bread and fish that continually regenerate when pieces are taken from them? A swirling vortex or bright light? A tiny grocery store? Would any of those sights be acceptable?
What if what you saw was decidedly less awesome?
.....
When it comes to such magic, "decidedly less awesome" is much more likely.
I have no idea, that's why I want to see it! Or even hands on the other side hand out the loaves and food?
I know the feeling. Such an amazing secret seems so tantalizing. What would you really expect to see, though? Loaves of bread and fish that continually regenerate when pieces are taken from them? A swirling vortex or bright light? A tiny grocery store? Would any of those sights be acceptable?
What if what you saw was decidedly less awesome?
.....
When it comes to such magic, "decidedly less awesome" is much more likely.
I have no idea, that's why I want to see it! Or even hands on the other side hand out the loaves and food?
Ooh. That's a good one. I wonder, though. Whose hands would they be? Would it just be god handing himself bread and fish? If that's the case, why not just have disembodied hands appear to each of the hungry and give them each their fill? Certainly, he wasn't concerned with alarming them by displaying his magical ability to conjure bread and fish.
_________________
Waltur the Walrus Slayer,
Militant Asantist.
"BLASPHEMER!! !! !! !!" (according to AngelRho)
that people with extra fish and loaves where adding them to the basket.
a sort of parable of the surplus we would have if we shared rather than horded.
I think it was clearly supernatural. Sharing is not a miracle in this regard. This is straight from Wikipedia:
"The Feeding of the 5,000
This is also known as the "miracle of the five loaves and two fish" given that the Gospel of John reports that five small barley loaves and two small fish supplied by a boy were used by Jesus to feed a multitude.
According to the Gospels, when Jesus heard that John the Baptist had been killed, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place near Bethsaida.
The crowds followed Jesus on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick. As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food."
Jesus replied, "They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat."
"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," they answered.
"Bring them here to me," he said.
Jesus directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
The Feeding of the 4,000
This appears in the Gospels of Mark and Matthew, is also known as the "miracle of the seven loaves and fishes" given that the Gospel of Matthew refers to seven loaves and a few small fish used by Jesus to feed a multitude.
The Church of the Multiplication in Tabgha is the site where some Christians believe the miracle to have taken place.
According to the Gospels, a large crowd had gathered and was following Jesus. Jesus called his disciples to him and said:
"I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way."
His disciples answered:
"Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?"
"How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.
"Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."
"Jesus told the crowd to sit down on the ground. Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people. They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. The number of those who ate was four thousand, besides women and children. After Jesus had sent the crowd away, he got into the boat and went to the vicinity of Magadan."
look at both of the stories neither says it is supernatural there is no "they were sore amazed" just
an accounting difference.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
an accounting difference.
The apparent premise is that there was not enough food at that site to feed everyone. It was late in the day, and the people had very likely already eaten what they had brought.
Also: why conjure dead fish? I can understand conjuring food and I understand that bread, by itself, doesn't supply as much nutrition as a meal of bread and fish but we're talking about magically conjuring food, here. There's no obvious reason that Jesus, being god and able to conjure food, chose to conjure more fish. Were these fish ever alive? I don't see why a food-summoning-deity wouldn't be able to conjure (dead) fish that had never lived. I just think that's a little creepy.
If I were conjuring (dead) fish to feed people, I'd probably serve it in an interesting preparation. Pan-seared outside and raw inside, perhaps? Spiced and grilled? I don't know. I imagine that if he wanted to show off a miracle, he would have served food that wasn't available in any quantities and, if he just wanted to feed everyone, he'd have just sated their hunger without conjuring dead animals and processed grain.
I do like the disembodied hands in a basket, visual though. Thanks for that.
_________________
Waltur the Walrus Slayer,
Militant Asantist.
"BLASPHEMER!! !! !! !!" (according to AngelRho)
If I were conjuring (dead) fish to feed people, I'd probably serve it in an interesting preparation. Pan-seared outside and raw inside, perhaps? Spiced and grilled? I don't know. I imagine that if he wanted to show off a miracle, he would have served food that wasn't available in any quantities and, if he just wanted to feed everyone, he'd have just sated their hunger without conjuring dead animals and processed grain.
I do like the disembodied hands in a basket, visual though. Thanks for that.
Well, I am not looking to question if it happened, I just wonder about overall. Yes, were they replications of the original fishes and bread? Was it fresh baked bread and just caught fish? They were probably expected to cook the fish themselves, as that's what they would have purchased had they gone back the village.
an accounting difference.
The apparent premise is that there was not enough food at that site to feed everyone. It was late in the day, and the people had very likely already eaten what they had brought.
It is not my book but I wonder if that is the traditional frame or the frame found in the text.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
"As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, "This is a remote place, and it's already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.""
This sound like there was no food available at the site, other than the little bit they had.