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Robdemanc
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24 Nov 2011, 2:46 pm

I watched a film called "House of Numbers" on youtube, it is a documentary investigating the history of HIV and AIDS and it raises some curious questions about the validity of HIV being a virus that causes AIDS. Has anyone seen it?

It seems to indicate the HIV was a deliberate scam to create a lucrative industry and cause social and cultural changes to the world.

Apparently the HIV test is error prone and cannot be used as a concrete indication that someone has it. That AIDS is a condition that is more likely caused by an unhealthy lifestyle. And that no one has ever isolated the HIV virus. Also that HIV is a retrovirus that most people may carry anyway.

I remember the scare stories in the 80's and people dying but it is now claimed that those who died did so because of a drug called AZT which was given to people to help prevent them getting AIDS after being tested positive for HIV from the faulty tests.

Am I being gullible listening to all this? Or should we all believe what our governments and media tells us?



Fnord
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24 Nov 2011, 2:49 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Is HIV a scam?

NO!

Next question?


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Robdemanc
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24 Nov 2011, 2:55 pm

Fnord wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
Is HIV a scam?

NO!

Next question?


How do you know?



rabryst
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24 Nov 2011, 3:20 pm

HIV/AIDS has killed millions of people. It is scientifically proven to exist. There are no false-negatives with the test, and having six friends with it, two of whom have died, I take great offence to this position.

As a side note, Thabo Mbeki, then president of South Africa, denied state treatment with ARVs to hundreds of thousands of HIV sufferers in that country and contributed to their deaths.

Your YouTube video is FUD and should be ignored. This is a real problem with real victims.


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Robdemanc
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24 Nov 2011, 3:28 pm

rabryst wrote:
HIV/AIDS has killed millions of people. It is scientifically proven to exist. There are no false-negatives with the test, .


I have known people to die. I have also had friends who have tested positive then negative then positive then negative.

Can you point me to the scientific proof? That is what I have been searching for.

The youtube video was a posting of a professionaly made film called "The House of Numbers" which interviewed scientists, sufferers, GPS, activists, charity workers all over the world. It is a 90 minute film. It gave no conclusion and merely asked for a debate on the progress being made about the condition.

Russian news channells (Russia Today) has had articles about the debate going on in the scientific commnunity about what is the cause of AIDS. So to me it sounds like there is some doubt.



HerrGrimm
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24 Nov 2011, 4:00 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Can you point me to the scientific proof? That is what I have been searching for.


Virology textbooks, biology textbooks, your local librarian can probably show you, etc.

Robdemanc wrote:
The youtube video was a posting of a professionaly made film called "The House of Numbers" which interviewed scientists, sufferers, GPS, activists, charity workers all over the world. It is a 90 minute film. It gave no conclusion and merely asked for a debate on the progress being made about the condition.


Means nothing. The House of Numbers is flat-out AIDS denialist propaganda.

Robdemanc wrote:
Russian news channells (Russia Today) has had articles about the debate going on in the scientific commnunity about what is the cause of AIDS. So to me it sounds like there is some doubt.


RT is a major scaremongering media outlet and will bite on any conspiracy theory known to man basically. An OVERWHELMING consensus of scientists and articles in peer-reviewed science periodicals, NOT YouTube (where anything can be posted) and NOT media outlets interested in sensationalism other than legitimate science reporting.



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24 Nov 2011, 4:07 pm

go shoot up with dirty needles and have lots of unprotected sex and come back and tell us.


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Jojoba
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24 Nov 2011, 4:10 pm

Doubt Aids is a made up scam. Have seen some researchers expressing doubts about the HIV virus being behind AIDS, but don't know what to make of it. Was happy to read at least that fewer people are developing and passing away from the condition of late. Seems treatments are being helpful.

"UN Global AIDS Report Has Good News"

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/ ... ds-report/

From the article:

Quote:
Here’s a report filled with good news. According to the United Nations’ annual report on the global AIDS epidemic, released yesterday, more people than ever are living with HIV, largely due to greater access to treatment. At the end of 2010, an estimated 34 million people were living with HIV worldwide, up 17 percent from 2001. This reflects the continued large number of new HIV infections and a significant expansion of access to antiretroviral therapy, which has helped reduce AIDS-related deaths, especially in more recent years.

At the same time, the number of people dying of AIDS-related causes fell to 1.8 million in 2010, down from a peak of 2.2 million in the mid-2000s. A total of 2.5 million deaths have been averted in low- and middle-income countries since 1995 due to antiretroviral therapy being introduced, according to new calculations by UNAIDS. Much of that success has come in the past two years when rapid scale-up of access to treatment occurred; in 2010 alone, 700 000 AIDS-related deaths were averted...



Oodain
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24 Nov 2011, 4:44 pm

MasterJedi wrote:
go shoot up with dirty needles and have lots of unprotected sex and come back and tell us.


for once i wholeheatedly agree with a "dirty" solution.
to think anyone in this day and age are so will fully ignorant as to try to deny HIV.

we might not know everything about it but it is most cetainly real,


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Robdemanc
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24 Nov 2011, 4:55 pm

Oodain wrote:
MasterJedi wrote:
go shoot up with dirty needles and have lots of unprotected sex and come back and tell us.


for once i wholeheatedly agree with a "dirty" solution.
to think anyone in this day and age are so will fully ignorant as to try to deny HIV.

we might not know everything about it but it is most cetainly real,


I never said I was denying it. I said I had seen a film that questioned it and I'd never heard of that before. I did ask in my first post if I was being gulible by considering what they were saying.

I can see it provokes much emotional responses in people and am obviously stupid to think that a debate on this issue could be had.



Oodain
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24 Nov 2011, 4:56 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
Oodain wrote:
MasterJedi wrote:
go shoot up with dirty needles and have lots of unprotected sex and come back and tell us.


for once i wholeheatedly agree with a "dirty" solution.
to think anyone in this day and age are so will fully ignorant as to try to deny HIV.

we might not know everything about it but it is most cetainly real,


I never said I was denying it. I said I had seen a film that questioned it and I'd never heard of that before. I did ask in my first post if I was being gulible by considering what they were saying.

I can see it provokes much emotional responses in people and am obviously stupid to think that a debate on this issue could be had.


be it you or them it wont change anything but whom it affects.


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24 Nov 2011, 5:04 pm

Image

Just pretend I took the time to modify it to list health organization, laboratories , hospitals and scientists instead of space-related things.


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Abgal64
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24 Nov 2011, 5:29 pm

Yes, it is a scam; by the way, did you know that the Roswell alien-led New World Order is examplified on the US $1 bill?

Seriously though, HIV/AIDS is real and is not deniable. What you saw on YouTube is complete idiocy and rubbish.


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24 Nov 2011, 5:35 pm

HIV is real. AIDS is real. It's not caused by "leading an unhealthy lifestyle." If that were the case, the late William Burroughs, who had been a heroin addict, and who had had a whole lot of meaningless gay sex would have died of AIDS a long time ago, because if there was anybody who ever lived an unhealthy lifestyle, it was William Burroughs. But instead, he died an ancient old man of pretty much old age.

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MasterJedi
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24 Nov 2011, 6:03 pm

hey, at least the OP is thinking.


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24 Nov 2011, 7:27 pm

When I went to medical school, the viral science of HIV and AIDS was very new, but its scientific validity was already rock solid.

We had every reason to believe that AIDS was viral before Luc Montiagnier discovered the virus. The epidaemeology was starkly clear that a pathogen of some kind was responsible. Bacteria, fungi and parasites were ruled out early and at the time, that left viruses. (Prions were known, but were also limited to neurodegenerative conditions).

The first indentified cases appeared in 1981, and a retroviral hypothesis of causation was a matter of scientific study within the year. The virus was discovered shortly thereafter (in 1983), and it was confirmed as the causitive agent the year following. In the almost 30 years since, there has been no evidence to contradict the causitive hypothesis. The mechanism of action is well understood, and the therapies that have been introduced to address it have demonstrated themselves to be effective.

Now certainly AIDS is not the only cause of immune deficiency. But causation for most immune deficiencies is clear--whether it be malnutrition, aging, immunosuppressive therapies, lymphomae, chemotherapy or asplenia the causes are generally known. So, let's ignore HIV for the moment, and put all AIDS cases into the ideopathic category.

HIV goes hand in hand with these ideopathic, systemic immune deficiencies. The vast preponderence of otherwise ideopathic, systemic immune deficiencies copresent with HIV. While that does not prove causation, it provides a starkly compelling case for a hypothesis of causation. By studying the mechanism of action of HIV, and its consequences for the immune system (particularly CD4 cells) we can seen the clear progression. Once the CD4 count drops below 200, the opportunistic infections begin.

Perhaps the most compelling case for HIV as the causitive agent is that antiretroviral therapies work. We can track a patient's viral load, and we can see the impact of antiretrovirals on that load, and the correlation with healthy CD4 counts. Now, if there was not a connection between HIV and AIDS, then we would expect patients with a negligible viral load to continue to present opportunistic infections at roughly the same rate as the population in general.

But this is not the case. When we eliminate presentations with a known pathology, a patient whose viral load is negligible presents opportunistic infections at a rate far below the population in general. When retroviral therapies are stopped, or cease to be effective and the patient's viral load rises again, we see a corresponding spike in the number and severity of opportunistic infections.

Based on my medical knowledge and experience, I have absolutely no reservations about stating clearly and definitively that HIV is the causitive pathogen of AIDS.


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