Christo-fascists harass High School Student

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abacacus
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25 Jan 2012, 2:08 pm

Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


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GoonSquad
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25 Jan 2012, 2:11 pm

abacacus wrote:
Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


I'm in enough squabbles right now... :P


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Master_Pedant
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25 Jan 2012, 2:12 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:

The whites at the bottom 1/3 of the income distribution still leans Democratic and have increasingly done so.

http://www.princeton.edu/~bartels/kansas.pdf

Bartel wrote:
Figure 1 shows remarkably little evidence of class voting in presidential elections from
1952 through 1972. Averaging over this period, Democratic presidential candidates garnered
46% of the votes of whites in the bottom third of the income distribution,
47% of those in the
middle third, and 42% of those in the upper third. In only one of these six elections, 1964, did
the gap in Democratic support between upper-income whites and lower-income whites exceed
6%.

On the other hand, from 1976 through 2004 there is a strong and fairly consistent income
gradient evident in the presidential voting behavior of white Americans. Averaging over the
eight presidential elections of this period, whites in the bottom third of the income distribution
cast 51% of their votes for Democrats,
as compared with 44% of middle-income whites and 37%
of upper-income whites. The gap in Democratic support between upper-income whites and
lower-income whites thus increased from 4% in the earlier period to 14% after 1976. The 2004
election was, as it happens, quite consistent with the pattern since 1976: John Kerry received
50% of the two-party vote among whites in the lower third of the income distribution and 39%
among those in the upper third of the income distribution – a difference of 11%.

It should be clear from these comparisons that economic status has become more
presidential elections from 1952 to 2004, this adjustment increases the average Republican vote share by
0.4 percentage points.

The Democratic vote share for the middle third of the income distribution is omitted from the figure for
visual clarity, but generally falls between those for the lower and upper thirds.
13
important, not less important, in structuring the presidential voting behavior of white Americans
over the course of the past half-century. Moreover, the general trend in support for Democratic
presidential candidates among whites in the bottom third of the income distribution has been
upward, not downward. Nor is this merely an artifact of anemic working-class support for Adlai
Stevenson running against Dwight Eisenhower in the first two elections of this sequence; Al
Gore and John Kerry did better among low-income whites in the close elections of 2000 and
2004 than John Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey did in the close elections of 1960 and 1968.
Thus, while it is generally true that Democratic presidential candidates have lost support among
white voters over the past half-century, those losses have been entirely (and roughly equally)
concentrated in the middle- and upper-income groups, and have been partially offset by
increasing support for Democratic candidates among low-income white voters.


That's a pretty pathetic lean from 46% to 51% in 30+ years. It's even worse when you consider that presidents are elected not by single votes, but by a our winner take all electoral college.

Those numbers should be more like 65% or 70%... and they would be be if left would stop alienating poor whites with social issues.

This is why democrats almost never carry the south despite the disproportionate number of poor whites there. It need not be that way.



The civil rights act was the nail in the coffin when it came to White Southern Working Class voters, but it had to be done. I would not sacrifice the civil rights act for the chance of Democrats continuing to win the "solid South". And what, exactly, "alienating" actions would you have Democrats discontinue to win back Southern Working Class Whites? They don't talk about secular government issues *at all* (a few non-partisan organizations do, but most progressive political organizations stay clear of the issue). If you mean compromising on gay rights and women's reproductive rights, I cannot in good conscience support such a political strategy. Besides, as Obama's shown, whether or not you actually soften or moderate your policies doesn't matter - the rightwing noise machine will just lie anyway.


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abacacus
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25 Jan 2012, 2:15 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


I'm in enough squabbles right now... :P


Maybe if you'd acknowledge the real world instead of the dream world Republicans seem to inhabit all the time you wouldn't be :wink:


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Master_Pedant
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25 Jan 2012, 2:16 pm

abacacus wrote:
Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


To do list:

  • Educate abacacus on reality and why hyperinflation is an non-existent threat (and why contractionary monetary & fiscal policies will hurt the economy).
  • Destroy the Conservative Party in Winnipeg.
  • Ensure that, whenever the word "conservative" is used, someone immediately thinks "country club".


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GoonSquad
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25 Jan 2012, 2:49 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
The civil rights act was the nail in the coffin when it came to White Southern Working Class voters, but it had to be done. I would not sacrifice the civil rights act for the chance of Democrats continuing to win the "solid South". And what, exactly, "alienating" actions would you have Democrats discontinue to win back Southern Working Class Whites? They don't talk about secular government issues *at all* (a few non-partisan organizations do, but most progressive political organizations stay clear of the issue). If you mean compromising on gay rights and women's reproductive rights, I cannot in good conscience support such a political strategy. Besides, as Obama's shown, whether or not you actually soften or moderate your policies doesn't matter - the rightwing noise machine will just lie anyway.


No. No, no, no.
This isn't 1975 and nobody is talking about throwing blacks under the bus, gay rights, abortions or anything like that.

Focus please.

We are talking about alienating people who SHOULD be political allies over things like Jesus rags, and saying "Merry Christmas."

BS this all you like, but these are the stupidest issues in the Right/Left culture war, and they cost us easy progress on economic issues and reform.


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GoonSquad
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25 Jan 2012, 3:04 pm

abacacus wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


I'm in enough squabbles right now... :P


Maybe if you'd acknowledge the real world instead of the dream world Republicans seem to inhabit all the time you wouldn't be :wink:


I'm closer to socialist than republican....

But I know someone who IS a republican: DR. RON PAUL!


What's up with that?

PS
I do acknowledge the dream world most republicans inhabit... if that helps. :lol:


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Last edited by GoonSquad on 25 Jan 2012, 3:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Master_Pedant
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25 Jan 2012, 3:06 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

No. No, no, no.
This isn't 1975 and nobody is talking about throwing blacks under the bus,


While that isn't a present cause of concern, the CURRENT southern working class white split with the Democratic Party is a legacy of the civil rights act. The Christian Right really started up thanks to school desegregation issues.

GoonSquad wrote:
gay rights, abortions or anything like that.


You're completely ignorant of the controversy over removing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", the opposition religious rightists successful mustered to gay marriage in California, the various laws that restrict access to abortion Southern States are implementing, and the like?

GoonSquad wrote:
Focus please.

We are talking about alienating people who SHOULD be political allies over things like Jesus rags, and saying "Merry Christmas."

BS this all you like, but these are the stupidest issues in the Right/Left culture war, and they cost us easy progress on economic issues and reform.


The problem is that "the left" hasn't actively pushed that agenda overall and few Democratic politician has touched it with a thirty-metre poll. Gays and abortion ARE a driving element of social conservatives in the South voting GOP, the occasional store that says "happy holidays", prayer banner taken down, or atheist activist are really just window-dressing.


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25 Jan 2012, 3:17 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:

No. No, no, no.
This isn't 1975 and nobody is talking about throwing blacks under the bus,


While that isn't a present cause of concern, the CURRENT southern working class white split with the Democratic Party is a legacy of the civil rights act. The Christian Right really started up thanks to school desegregation issues.

GoonSquad wrote:
gay rights, abortions or anything like that.


You're completely ignorant of the controversy over removing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", the opposition religious rightists successful mustered to gay marriage in California, the various laws that restrict access to abortion Southern States are implementing, and the like?

GoonSquad wrote:
Focus please.

We are talking about alienating people who SHOULD be political allies over things like Jesus rags, and saying "Merry Christmas."

BS this all you like, but these are the stupidest issues in the Right/Left culture war, and they cost us easy progress on economic issues and reform.


The problem is that "the left" hasn't actively pushed that agenda overall and few Democratic politician has touched it with a thirty-metre poll. Gays and abortion ARE a driving element of social conservatives in the South voting GOP, the occasional store that says "happy holidays", prayer banner taken down, or atheist activist are really just window-dressing.


And it's because of hot button issues like abortion and gay rights that the right convinces poor whites to vote against their own economic and social interests.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



abacacus
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25 Jan 2012, 3:20 pm

GoonSquad wrote:
abacacus wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


I'm in enough squabbles right now... :P


Maybe if you'd acknowledge the real world instead of the dream world Republicans seem to inhabit all the time you wouldn't be :wink:


I'm closer to socialist than republican....

But I know someone who IS a republican: DR. RON PAUL!


What's up with that?

PS
I do acknowledge the dream world most republicans inhabit... if that helps. :lol:


I know Ron is a Republican. He's the only Republican I can support. He's not perfect, but he's better than the rest.

Socialist? In America? Gasp hiss shock! 8O


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You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.


Kraichgauer
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25 Jan 2012, 3:34 pm

abacacus wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
abacacus wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Fixing Ron Paul voters? You mean those of us who recognise reality?


I'm in enough squabbles right now... :P


Maybe if you'd acknowledge the real world instead of the dream world Republicans seem to inhabit all the time you wouldn't be :wink:


I'm closer to socialist than republican....

But I know someone who IS a republican: DR. RON PAUL!


What's up with that?

PS
I do acknowledge the dream world most republicans inhabit... if that helps. :lol:


I know Ron is a Republican. He's the only Republican I can support. He's not perfect, but he's better than the rest.

Socialist? In America? Gasp hiss shock! 8O


I've recently seen a pole where socialism is actually very popular among younger Americans. And that has Republicans scared s**tless.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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25 Jan 2012, 3:38 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I've recently seen a pole where socialism is actually very popular among younger Americans. And that has Republicans scared s**tless.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


That could mean a return to a 1930s style solid left, which would put pressure on the Democratic Establishment (shifting it from being centre-right back to being centrist reform-liberal).


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Master_Pedant
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25 Jan 2012, 3:44 pm

Nate Silver wrote:
Unsurprisingly, there is a very strong correspondence between the religiosity of a state and its propensity to ban gay marriage, with a particular "bonus" effect depending on the number of white evangelicals in the state.


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/ ... riage.html

Bigots like Michelle Bachmann aren't popular with fundie voters just because of "Happy Holidays" greetings.


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25 Jan 2012, 3:58 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
GoonSquad wrote:

No. No, no, no.
This isn't 1975 and nobody is talking about throwing blacks under the bus,


While that isn't a present cause of concern, the CURRENT southern working class white split with the Democratic Party is a legacy of the civil rights act. The Christian Right really started up thanks to school desegregation issues.

GoonSquad wrote:
gay rights, abortions or anything like that.


You're completely ignorant of the controversy over removing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell", the opposition religious rightists successful mustered to gay marriage in California, the various laws that restrict access to abortion Southern States are implementing, and the like?

GoonSquad wrote:
Focus please.

We are talking about alienating people who SHOULD be political allies over things like Jesus rags, and saying "Merry Christmas."

BS this all you like, but these are the stupidest issues in the Right/Left culture war, and they cost us easy progress on economic issues and reform.


The problem is that "the left" hasn't actively pushed that agenda overall and few Democratic politician has touched it with a thirty-metre poll. Gays and abortion ARE a driving element of social conservatives in the South voting GOP, the occasional store that says "happy holidays", prayer banner taken down, or atheist activist are really just window-dressing.


Dude, read your own thread and tell me bashing jesus doesn't piss people off. The baby jesus polarizes people like nobody's business! And bashing the baby jesus is owned and operated by the left because of shit-storms like the one this girl stirred-up and the people who come to defend her....

Left politicians stay away because they know how silly and caustic this stuff is, but they still get damaged because the left has been branded as "anti-religious atheist elites." Lefty politicians need to distance themselves from atheist zealots as much as possible.

I live in the south and I work for a gay guy, so I know a bit about southern politics... Race is still a small factor, as is gay rights and abortion, but religion bashing is much more inflammatory (it makes MORE people MORE angry).

At any rate, the BIGGEST difference between gay rights and abortion rights and jesus bashing is that furthering gay rights and abortion rights actually improves peoples lives. That's worth doing. That's worth the price.

Generally, jesus bashing just causes a lot of ill will (mostly directed toward the left) for questionable benefit.

Who benefited in a real way, from this incident? Nobody.

And, in the long term, this DOES alienate people and it NEEDLESSLY hurts Progressive progress.

Fight the good fight, fight the smart fight,do not fight every fight.


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GoonSquad
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25 Jan 2012, 4:08 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Nate Silver wrote:
Unsurprisingly, there is a very strong correspondence between the religiosity of a state and its propensity to ban gay marriage, with a particular "bonus" effect depending on the number of white evangelicals in the state.


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/04/ ... riage.html

Bigots like Michelle Bachmann aren't popular with fundie voters just because of "Happy Holidays" greetings.


My gay boss b*****s about "happy holidays." :P

and, did you see Bachmann's numbers? She wasn't really popular with anybody.


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NathanealWest
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25 Jan 2012, 4:40 pm

Oh come on, my post about Nietzsche was brilliant. :lol: