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ripped
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25 Jan 2013, 9:33 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
I really can't make much sense of what you just said here.

You'll get there.


Saying stuff like that just makes you look arrogant. Isn't there any doubt in your head about this?

You haven't included the rest of the conversation, so I cant answer it.


I meant doubt in your head about reincarnation as you understand it.

No.



puddingmouse
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25 Jan 2013, 9:35 pm

ripped wrote:
No.


I find that scary.



MCalavera
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25 Jan 2013, 9:36 pm

ripped wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
I really can't make much sense of what you just said here.

You'll get there.


I feel quite assured. :P



puddingmouse
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25 Jan 2013, 9:41 pm

ripped wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
No.


I find that scary.

Please state exactly what you mean.
Your meaning may be obvious, but this is a public forum and I cant answer on my guess.


The sound of a mind closing is a frightening one.



ripped
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25 Jan 2013, 9:42 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
No.


I find that scary.

Please state exactly what you mean.
Your meaning may be obvious, but this is a public forum and I cant answer on my guess.


The sound of a mind closing is a frightening one.

You consider the belief in reincarnation as close minded?



puddingmouse
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25 Jan 2013, 9:44 pm

ripped wrote:
You consider the belief in reincarnation as close minded?


I consider absolute certainty in that belief closed minded, especially given the lack of scientific evidence. Moreover, absolute certainty that you understand reincarnation, even if you believe in it, is closed minded.

Christians who are absolutely certain of their beliefs scare me, too.



techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jan 2013, 10:22 pm

ripped wrote:
It doesn't sound like It was a very positive experience.

I think the key negative experience came from my trying what were actionable means to expand my consciousness. Based on that it lead to some borderline Crowley-ite behavior which lead me to second guess just what I was doing or whether I liked where it was leading me. Finding out about Ophite Gnosticism helped me understand much more clearly what was happening. I signed up for such an adventure as a former atheist/agnostic exploring what I believed to be reality and really wanting to do the best I could with my life; not looking to get 'illuminated'.

An additional push was being constantly steered toward St. Germain and reading what was available about him (or knowing that the Supreme Court fraud and a pair of 1930's scammers had the best information you'd find) sealed the deal. I was told about the violet flame and to meditate on that....err...is that violet or black? I've heard of both now. Add to that the stories of people who experienced Benjamin Creme and Maitreya together and it gets clear fast that 'ascended masters' and 'white brotherhood of light' are VERY bad stuff.

Another wonderful page that I just found paraphrasing the situation:
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/ascended_masters.html



ripped
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25 Jan 2013, 10:48 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
You consider the belief in reincarnation as close minded?


I consider absolute certainty in that belief closed minded, especially given the lack of scientific evidence. Moreover, absolute certainty that you understand reincarnation, even if you believe in it, is closed minded.

Christians who are absolutely certain of their beliefs scare me, too.

Then you sound like a very fearful person.



ModusPonens
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25 Jan 2013, 10:52 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
... some humans remember their past lifes.

Can you provide links of book references to first-hand accounts of people remembering their past lives?


I have to correct my last post as the literal translation of anedoctal to my language is different in meaning than the english word.

So you asked for first-hand accounts but you require them not to be subjective and anedoctal? I can only conclude that your initial goal was to ridicule my beliefs asking an aparently honest question to then ridicularise my response. Well, the joke's on you since at least I can't be acused of intelectual dishonesty in discussing this. I stated why I believe in reincarnation aqnd that I'm not here trying to prove anything as that is impossible for our current technology. It belongs to the realm of religion, not science. However, your position was intelectualy dishonest.

I have nothing further to add to you on the subject of rebirth as you demonstrated not being fit for a discussion with me.


He was asking an honest question.

I don't think 'religion' should be exempt from scientific enquiry.


Did you see his response to my link which he "honestly" asked for? That is the problem. He asked for book references of people remembering past lifes and then criticises those references for being exactly what he asked for. There's only one explanation: he wasn't being honest.

Of course scientific enquire is welcome, but science deals with falsifiable theories and rebirth isn't one of them. You can gather a huge amount of material trying to suport rebirth, but unless it's verifiable and reproduceable by others, it doesn't constitute scientific proof of rebirth. On the other hand, since rebirth is not selfcontradictory, science can't conclude it doesn't exist. It can only assume. So that's where we stand now. We can't move in either direction.



ripped
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25 Jan 2013, 10:56 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
ripped wrote:
It doesn't sound like It was a very positive experience.

I think the key negative experience came from my trying what were actionable means to expand my consciousness. Based on that it lead to some borderline Crowley-ite behavior which lead me to second guess just what I was doing or whether I liked where it was leading me. Finding out about Ophite Gnosticism helped me understand much more clearly what was happening. I signed up for such an adventure as a former atheist/agnostic exploring what I believed to be reality and really wanting to do the best I could with my life; not looking to get 'illuminated'.

An additional push was being constantly steered toward St. Germain and reading what was available about him (or knowing that the Supreme Court fraud and a pair of 1930's scammers had the best information you'd find) sealed the deal. I was told about the violet flame and to meditate on that....err...is that violet or black? I've heard of both now. Add to that the stories of people who experienced Benjamin Creme and Maitreya together and it gets clear fast that 'ascended masters' and 'white brotherhood of light' are VERY bad stuff.

Another wonderful page that I just found paraphrasing the situation:
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/ascended_masters.html


It sounds pretty biased.



techstepgenr8tion
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25 Jan 2013, 11:04 pm

ripped wrote:
It sounds pretty biased.

Fair enough. I'd have to suppose I am these days as well.



puddingmouse
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25 Jan 2013, 11:28 pm

ripped wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
ripped wrote:
You consider the belief in reincarnation as close minded?


I consider absolute certainty in that belief closed minded, especially given the lack of scientific evidence. Moreover, absolute certainty that you understand reincarnation, even if you believe in it, is closed minded.

Christians who are absolutely certain of their beliefs scare me, too.

Then you sound like a very fearful person.


Yeah, people are scary.



puddingmouse
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25 Jan 2013, 11:31 pm

ModusPonens wrote:

Did you see his response to my link which he "honestly" asked for? That is the problem. He asked for book references of people remembering past lifes and then criticises those references for being exactly what he asked for. There's only one explanation: he wasn't being honest.

Of course scientific enquire is welcome, but science deals with falsifiable theories and rebirth isn't one of them. You can gather a huge amount of material trying to suport rebirth, but unless it's verifiable and reproduceable by others, it doesn't constitute scientific proof of rebirth. On the other hand, since rebirth is not selfcontradictory, science can't conclude it doesn't exist. It can only assume. So that's where we stand now. We can't move in either direction.


I think it would be better to say that you see no point in having the conversation, rather than saying he's not fit to discuss it.

That just sounds like a typical religious 'you're too blind to get it' response. You don't want to give them further ammunition.



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26 Jan 2013, 12:35 pm

ModusPonens wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
... some humans remember their past lifes.
Can you provide links of book references to first-hand accounts of people remembering their past lives?
I'll give you the wiki page of the psychiatrist who best researched into this. There you can find the titles of the books. He himself said that he hadn't found definite proof of reincarnation. He collected cases suggestive of this possibility. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson
Those cases are all subjective and anecdotal.
Did you read all books? How did you come to such a conclusion?
I've read all the books, and many more since I first became interested in reincarnation and similar claims in the mid-1960s. That's over 45 years of study of the so-called "paranormal". In all that time, I've found nothing regarding reincarnation that would indicate that it is nothing more than pseudo-religious nonsense.

I'm decades ahead of you, kid. There is nothing new that you can tell me, and there is certainly no "evidence" that you could present that would convince me that any claims of reincarnation are valid - they're just hopeful thinking by people who fear oblivion, or ego trips for people who want others to believe that they are special.


_________________
 
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


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26 Jan 2013, 1:14 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:

Did you see his response to my link which he "honestly" asked for? That is the problem. He asked for book references of people remembering past lifes and then criticises those references for being exactly what he asked for. There's only one explanation: he wasn't being honest.

Of course scientific enquire is welcome, but science deals with falsifiable theories and rebirth isn't one of them. You can gather a huge amount of material trying to suport rebirth, but unless it's verifiable and reproduceable by others, it doesn't constitute scientific proof of rebirth. On the other hand, since rebirth is not selfcontradictory, science can't conclude it doesn't exist. It can only assume. So that's where we stand now. We can't move in either direction.


I think it would be better to say that you see no point in having the conversation, rather than saying he's not fit to discuss it.

That just sounds like a typical religious 'you're too blind to get it' response. You don't want to give them further ammunition.


Not at all. That wasn't my intention. In fact, I'll repeat it again (I think it's the 4th time I say this in this thread): I'm not here to prove anything. If people want stories that make them think twice before denying rebirth then I provide it. As I said I can't prove anything. It's impossible (for our current technology).

My intention was to point out intelectual dishonesty. It's not worth discussing with people who come to the discussion with the previous intention of ridicularising the other, while at the same time pretending to be innocent. It's not at all an "you're too blind to see it" atitude. I'm not even sure of rebirth myself. I believe it, but I'm not 100% sure.



ModusPonens
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26 Jan 2013, 1:34 pm

Fnord wrote:
I've read all the books, and many more since I first became interested in reincarnation and similar claims in the mid-1960s. That's over 45 years of study of the so-called "paranormal". In all that time, I've found nothing regarding reincarnation that would indicate that it is nothing more than pseudo-religious nonsense.

I'm decades ahead of you, kid. There is nothing new that you can tell me, and there is certainly no "evidence" that you could present that would convince me that any claims of reincarnation are valid - they're just hopeful thinking by people who fear oblivion, or ego trips for people who want others to believe that they are special.


The "kid" will tell you something then. You probably wasted 45 years of your life reading books when you could be experiencing these things directly through intensive meditation. It would only take you 1 year. So yes, you wasted precious time when you could be working for something much bigger.

And why is it "pseudo-religious nonsense" instead of "religious nonsense"? It seems you wasted your time reading new age crap. :lol: So, even if you are wiser than me now, you weren't wise as a young man at all.

As Seinfeld would say, "that's a shame".