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MadMonkey
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30 Jan 2013, 2:49 pm

Fun experiment I thought of. Let's find out what values/positions/concepts etc we actually agree on. I will list some things out. If you disagree with any of them, post here and I will cross out the things you disagree with.

If you want to add some ideas to the list, post here and I will add them, unless I or someone else disagree with them. Everything is on the table. I think it will be fun to see if there is anything at all that we can all agree on.

Ok, here is a short starter list:

Potential Common Ground
1) Racial equality. No one group of people is essentially superior or more deserving of rights than any other.
3) Women deserve equal treatment under the law.
5) It is potentially OK to have laws that enforce gender equality, although specific laws may not be acceptable.
18) Spock is cool *Objection noted
19) Either heaven is real, or it isn't.......

The Already Stricken
----------> STRIKE 2) There is no perfect form of government. It will always be corrupt, and tyranny will always be a danger.
----------> STRIKE 4) We need laws to enforce racial equality.
----------> STRIKE 6) Society has a moral responsibly to provide for all members of society.
----------> STRIKE 7) Society has the absolute right to make demands of people who are dependent on handouts. In other words, if you want free housing, food, etc, you will live where we tell you to live, eat what we tell you to eat, and behave as you are told to behave. If you don't like the free soup then we can wash our hands of you and let you starve.
----------> STRIKE 8) Immigrants should have a very clear path to citizenship.
----------> STRIKE 9) Abortion should be legal
----------> STRIKE 10) Polygamy should be legal
----------> STRIKE 11) Prostitution should be legal.
----------> STRIKE 12) Drugs should be legal
----------> STRIKE 13) Guns should be limited and closely regulated
----------> STRIKE 14) Businesses should never be trusted at their word.
----------> STRIKE 15) The people have the right to regulate industry however they see fit.
----------> STRIKE 16) We should be happy to pay taxes
----------> STRIKE 17) We should bring criminal charges against corrupt politicians


That's probably enough random statements to start. I wonder if any of them can survive even a few posts.


Edit: Lots of strikes, and several others are in question.[b]



Last edited by MadMonkey on 31 Jan 2013, 1:13 pm, edited 9 times in total.

GGPViper
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30 Jan 2013, 3:10 pm

1) Racial equality. No one group of people is essentially superior or more deserving of rights than any other.
Agree.

2) There is no perfect form of government. It will always be corrupt, and tyranny will always be a danger.
Agree, as per the Arrow Impossibility Theorem,

3) Women deserve equal treatment under the law.
Agree.

4) We need laws to enforce racial equality.
Depending on the law. I am against Affirmative Action.

5) We need laws to enforce gender equality.
See my response to (4).

6) Society has a moral responsibly to provide for all members of society.
I find that "provide" is insufficiently defined.

7) Society has the absolute right to make demands of people who are dependent on handouts. In other words, if you want free housing, food, etc, you will live where we tell you to live, eat what we tell you to eat, and behave as you are told to behave. If you don't like the free soup then we can wash our hands of you and let you starve.
Something is fishy about this one. Did you include it simply to have it shot down?

8) Immigrants should have a very clear path to citizenship.
Partially agree. Note that "very clear" does not mean "easy".

9) Abortion should be legal.
Yes, but qualified - mostly based on the stage of pregnancy.

10) Polygamy should be legal.
Only if it works both ways.

11) Prostitution should be legal.
Agree.

12) Drugs should be legal
Depends on the drug.

13) Guns should be limited and closely regulated.
Depends on the limitation and regulation.

14) Businesses should never be trusted at their word.
Agree.

15) The people have the right to regulate industry however they see fit.
Disagree.

16) We should be happy to pay taxes
Disagree.

17) We should bring criminal charges against corrupt politicians
Agree. But who defines what is corrupt and what is not?

MadMonkey wrote:
That's probably enough random statements to start. I wonder if any of them can survive even a few posts.


(9) and (13) will probably go down in flames faster than the Hindenburg in a meteor swarm.

Let's try a more realistic candidate:

18) Spock is cool.


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MadMonkey
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30 Jan 2013, 3:19 pm

GGPViper wrote:
4) We need laws to enforce racial equality.

Depending on the law. I am against Affirmative Action.

Fair enough. How about any laws whose sole purpose is to somehow mollify the effects of racism?

5) We need laws to enforce gender equality.

See my response to (4).

Same as my response to (4)

6) Society has a moral responsibly to provide for all members of society.

I find that "provide" is insufficiently defined.

I mean that people who are in need should always have some services available to them to keep them safe, healthy and happy. No one should be homeless unless they want to be homeless.

7) Society has the absolute right to make demands of people who are dependent on handouts. In other words, if you want free housing, food, etc, you will live where we tell you to live, eat what we tell you to eat, and behave as you are told to behave. If you don't like the free soup then we can wash our hands of you and let you starve.

Something is fishy about this one. Did you include it simply to have it shot down?

Well, I figure everything will eventually be shot down, but what I mean is that social responsibility goes both ways. I feel obligated to provide housing for poor people. However, if they want to run meth labs in public housing I feel fine with saying "You don't get housing anymore". I also feel fine with saying, You need to take this job that has been offered to you or you cannot keep your public services. Of course I do think there should be an appeals process and our requirements should be reasonable, however we decide that through democratic means.

8) Immigrants should have a very clear path to citizenship.

Partially agree. Note that "very clear" does not mean "easy".

Fair.

9) Abortion should be legal.

Yes, but qualified - mostly based on the stage of pregnancy.

Fair.

13) Guns should be limited and closely regulated.

Depends on the limitation and regulation.

Sure, but I think that counts as agree in principle with the notion of gun laws being potentially ok.

17) We should bring criminal charges against corrupt politicians

Agree. But who defines what is corrupt and what is not?

The legal system?

Let's try a more realistic candidate:

18) Spock is cool.

Agree.


I will update the original post.



psychohist
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30 Jan 2013, 3:37 pm

"4) We need laws to enforce racial equality."
Disagree. Market forces are sufficient in the absence of laws that actively enforce racial inequality. If the law doesn't require a separate lunch counter for blacks, the guy who runs one lunch counter will make more money and the guy who enforces segregation will be driven out of business.

"5) We need laws to enforce gender equality."
I'm not sure whether I agree, but I don't actively disagree.

"6) Society has a moral responsibly to provide for all members of society."
Disagree. There is no such thing as "society", just collections of individuals. Individuals do not have arbitrary responsibility to provide for any other individuals. Truly needy individuals should be provided for through voluntary charity, which is not really a "responsibility".

"7) Society has the absolute right to make demands of people who are dependent on handouts. In other words, if you want free housing, food, etc, you will live where we tell you to live, eat what we tell you to eat, and behave as you are told to behave. If you don't like the free soup then we can wash our hands of you and let you starve."
Agreed, but unnecessary without (6).

"8) Immigrants should have a very clear path to citizenship."
Disagree with the rule as stated. There may be a place for temporary immigrants who have no intention or desire for citizenship.

"11) Prostitution should be legal."
I'm not sure whether I agree, but I don't actively disagree.

"12) Drugs should be legal"
I don't actively disagree provided the rest of society is perfect. I do disagree in societies where some people are tax supported, since reducing one's productivity with drugs then increases the burden on others.

"13) Guns should be limited and closely regulated"
Disagree. Privately held, technologically current weapons are ultimately the only way to hold tyranny in check.

"14) Businesses should never be trusted at their word."
Disagree. I know a lot of trustworthy businesses.

"----------> STRIKE 15) The people have the right to regulate industry however they see fit."
I also disagree with this.

"----------> STRIKE 16) We should be happy to pay taxes"
I also disagree with this in the general case.

"17) We should bring criminal charges against corrupt politicians"
I'm not sure that criminal rather than civil charges are always the way to go, so I disagree with it as stated.



MadMonkey
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30 Jan 2013, 3:44 pm

psychohist, I would love to see you add to the list. You seem to come from a libertarian perspective which usually disagree with on everything. I would love to see if there is anything else we agree on.



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30 Jan 2013, 3:47 pm

I don't agree with point number 2. I think that a government could be formed that wasn't susceptible to corruption and tyranny. If we create something like an aspie committee to run things or an AI system to manage our societies.

It is a very negative thing to agree with and I just think humanity has to progress past this selfish, power tripping era we are going through. I think we can rise above it.



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30 Jan 2013, 3:47 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
Fun experiment I thought of. Let's find out what values/positions/concepts etc we actually agree on. I will list some things out. If you disagree with any of them, post here and I will cross out the things you disagree with.

Interesting idea.

Quote:
1) Racial equality. No one group of people is essentially superior or more deserving of rights than any other.
2) There is no perfect form of government. It will always be corrupt, and tyranny will always be a danger.
3) Women deserve equal treatment under the law.

Agree.

Quote:
4) We need laws to enforce racial equality.
5) We need laws to enforce gender equality.

Without knowing which specific laws you're talking about, I can't agree or disagree.

Quote:
8) Immigrants should have a very clear path to citizenship.

Agree. Note that I'm not saying anything good or bad about the current paths to citizenship, since I don't know enough about them, I'm just agreeing philosophically that what the path is should be clear.

Quote:
9) Abortion should be legal

Disagree. My exact position is not quite this binary, but I'm not going to get into it, since every time I try to debate this issue, it *always* turns nasty.

Quote:
13) Guns should be limited and closely regulated

This is not sufficiently clear to give an opinion on.

Quote:
14) Businesses should never be trusted at their word.

Disagree. A healthy suspicion is reasonable when a business says something that might profit them, but this is going too far.

Quote:
17) We should bring criminal charges against corrupt politicians

Insufficiently clear. Which politicians? What counts as corrupt?

That said, if it gets clarified enough, I'm more likely to agree than disagree, since the exact opposite of this is a very bad idea.

Quote:
18) Spock is cool

Agree.

I suspect Spock, racial and sexual equality, and "all governments suck" have the best chance of making it.


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MadMonkey
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30 Jan 2013, 3:52 pm

Robdemanc wrote:
I don't agree with point number 2. I think that a government could be formed that wasn't susceptible to corruption and tyranny. If we create something like an aspie committee to run things or an AI system to manage our societies.

It is a very negative thing to agree with and I just think humanity has to progress past this selfish, power tripping era we are going through. I think we can rise above it.


8O I really thought that might be the only thing we all agree on.



MadMonkey
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30 Jan 2013, 3:54 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Quote:
4) We need laws to enforce racial equality.
5) We need laws to enforce gender equality.

Without knowing which specific laws you're talking about, I can't agree or disagree.


I updated the statement. I don't have specific laws, just the idea that some laws might be OK.



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30 Jan 2013, 4:06 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Quote:
4) We need laws to enforce racial equality.
5) We need laws to enforce gender equality.

Without knowing which specific laws you're talking about, I can't agree or disagree.


I updated the statement. I don't have specific laws, just the idea that some laws might be OK.

With the added intentional vagueness, I can agree with them.


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30 Jan 2013, 4:20 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
I don't agree with point number 2. I think that a government could be formed that wasn't susceptible to corruption and tyranny. If we create something like an aspie committee to run things or an AI system to manage our societies.

It is a very negative thing to agree with and I just think humanity has to progress past this selfish, power tripping era we are going through. I think we can rise above it.


8O I really thought that might be the only thing we all agree on.


I am not saying we will reach Utopia but I think it possible that sometime in the future we could overcome our base instincts and start to act with a little more integrity. Politicians fall easily to their greed for power and wealth, but I believe it's only because they lack intelligence and foresight.



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30 Jan 2013, 4:33 pm

the problem is that right wingers inherently believe that social inequality is either inevitable or in extreme cases, desirable.

Thats why there will never be a broad consensus between progressives and reactionaries.


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30 Jan 2013, 4:39 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
Fun experiment I thought of. Let's find out what values/positions/concepts etc we actually agree on. I will list some things out. If you disagree with any of them, post here and I will cross out the things you disagree with.

If you want to add some ideas to the list, post here and I will add them, unless I or someone else disagree with them. Everything is on the table. I think it will be fun to see if there is anything at all that we can all agree on.

Ok, here is a short starter list:

Potential Common Ground

7) Society has the absolute right to make demands of people who are dependent on handouts. In other words, if you want free housing, food, etc, you will live where we tell you to live, eat what we tell you to eat, and behave as you are told to behave. If you don't like the free soup then we can wash our hands of you and let you starve.
12) Drugs should be legal
18) Spock is cool


I categorically reject 8 on a couple of grounds. First, society has no absolute rights. Second, they're not "handouts," which is too politically loaded a word. And third, regardless off the level of social deviance, we cannot let anyone starve who does not make a concious, rational choice to starve.

I reject 12 as being too broad to make good public policy on two scores. First, it's uncritical about what is meant by "drugs." Are we only dealing with recreational drugs or with all pharmaceuticals? And what do we mean by "legal?" There are many drugs that are perfectly legal to purchase, possess and take with a prescription, but are not available otherwise. Are we suggesting that doctors should no longer exercise control over prescriptions?

I reject 18 because I feel like it. Even if I wholeheartedly agree.


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psychohist
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30 Jan 2013, 4:44 pm

MadMonkey wrote:
psychohist, I would love to see you add to the list. You seem to come from a libertarian perspective which usually disagree with on everything. I would love to see if there is anything else we agree on.

Add things that I think everyone will agree on? I'm not sure I can think of any. Right now, I'm just hoping that (1) and (2) stand up.



MadMonkey
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30 Jan 2013, 4:49 pm

psychohist wrote:
Add things that I think everyone will agree on? I'm not sure I can think of any. Right now, I'm just hoping that (1) and (2) stand up.


No, just add stuff that matters to you. Of course not everyone will agree.

And 1&2 will not stand. I have seen plenty of strait up, unapologetic, racism and sexism on these boards. We definitely have voting members of our society who think non whites are somehow inferior to white and women are inferior to men. They just haven't posted to this thread yet.



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30 Jan 2013, 9:40 pm

You can strike "polygamy should be legal." I don't think the government should support or endorse any sort of purely personal relationship via conferring marriage rights, except as necessary in the case of the partners bearing children and/or bringing foriegn partners into the country. There should be no marriage.