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auntblabby
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12 Feb 2012, 4:16 am

donnie_darko wrote:
I think it would be interesting to see if there is a significant difference in empathy between pro and anti death penalty people.

i wonder why so many antiabortion types just happen to be pro-death-penalty also.



donnie_darko
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12 Feb 2012, 4:38 am

auntblabby wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I think it would be interesting to see if there is a significant difference in empathy between pro and anti death penalty people.

i wonder why so many antiabortion types just happen to be pro-death-penalty also.


I'm against against both. I see both abortion and the death penalty as gross violations of human rights.



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12 Feb 2012, 4:42 am

I'm pro choice and anti death penalty. I'm for human rights (who isn't?) I believe the human rights in the abortion issue reside with the mother.

You can now call me an evil liberal hypocrite who cares more about mass murders than ickle 'babies'. It will not change my views.


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hanyo
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12 Feb 2012, 5:08 am

I am mostly against it but if I ever think it should be allowed it would be for serial killers and mass murderers. Even then I think the person getting it should have a choice between the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole.


I am also pro choice and somewhat anti death penalty. There is no way I'd ever be pro life as I don't believe a woman should have to suffer through an unwanted pregnancy and I don't consider a baby to be a person until there is a chance for it to survive outside the mother's body.

With the death penalty I think killing another person against their will is wrong which is why it should only be used against people that have killed multiple other people. Also I think the chance that even one innocent person could be executed makes it wrong. If you give them life in prison and they are later found innocent at least you can let them out, although their life is probably already ruined.



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12 Feb 2012, 5:24 am

puddingmouse wrote:
You can now call me an evil liberal hypocrite who cares more about mass murders than ickle 'babies'. It will not change my views.

Do people actually make those kind of outlandish claims? And still expect others to take them seriously? 8O No wonder I stopped watching and reading the news.

I have to admit, though - personal circumstances and recent family happenings have shifted my perspective on abortion more towards a pro-choice position. Once upon a time I was pro-life...



CrazyCatLord
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12 Feb 2012, 4:16 pm

abacacus wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
artrat wrote:
How do you know if they can never be rehabilitated? If you ruled the world then many people would already be dead. To make capital punishment legal is an abuse of government power. Capital punishment is hypocritical. It's okay for the government to commit murder but it is not okay for anyone else. I believe people that support are one step away from becoming sociopaths. To support it so strongly is quite sick if you ask me.

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you tell 'em! :)
give 'em hell, artrat :thumleft:


And to believe that all people can be rehabilitated is naive in the extreme. It's a dream, not reality. And as I'm sure you can understand, making a decision in the real world based off of a dream is not a very good idea.

And, if someone can't be rehabilitated, what possible excuse is there to keep them alive? On the taxpayers dime no less? Bullets are cheap. Kill them and get it over with.

You're right artrat, if I was in power a lot of people would be dead. I have no patience for some crimes, and I believe that anyone who commits them are stripped of humanity and are only fit to die before they re-offend.


I think that's a false dilemma. You don't have to either support the death penalty or believe in rehabilitation. There is a third option: Lock criminals away to protect society, but keep in mind that they might be innocent (i.e., treat them humanely and don't kill them).



shrox
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12 Feb 2012, 4:32 pm

abacacus wrote:
kestrel wrote:
abacacus wrote:
I concur with the first paragraph for the most part.

As far as the second paragraph goes, not so much. Money is worth something because of imagination, yes, but it hold real value. I can go to the store, and with those dollars and cents procure whatever that store is selling (assuming I have enough of them). Life can be bought in much the same way, hence I say it is cheap. I can buy a life by hiring a hitman, or simply take one by killing someone (at low or no monetary cost, cheap).

Did you know that if you melt a pre-1983 penny, it's worth 2.5 pennies in terms of its constituent metal composition? A post-1983 penny in total value, melted, is worth $0.0055. The value is entirely subjective - imaginary, and the basis of a consensual delusion.

On the other hand, a bullet, I'm sure, is worth more than the sum of its component parts, provided a gun to fire it. This is the only reason our currency has any value - real or imaginary.


Correct. A bullet is quite cheap to make, the added value is there both because of the time spent to create, ship, and store the bullet and also a mark up that is there just because we will pay it.


I had a toy gun that shot pennies.



ruveyn
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12 Feb 2012, 4:34 pm

abacacus wrote:
I noticed the beginnings of a discussion about this in another thread. To prevent derailment, what's your opinion?

Personally, I am a supporter in some cases. Mainly, in cases where there is no doubt about the perpetrators guilt and the crime is very destructive. Murder, rape, child abuse of any kind, crimes that can destroy lives.


For the worst offenders I prefer penal colonies. That achieves the same end as capital punishment - it removes miscreant from our midst forever and requires minimal infrastructure. Put the bad guys ashore on an island, given them a spade, a hoe and a bag of seeds and bid them goodbye.

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12 Feb 2012, 5:08 pm

an internationally overseen penal colony might be an interesting idea,

use it to isolate the worst the world has to offer for good, maybe give them the possibility of working for money that could be sent to family or victims.
give them the choice of helping, other than that they should care for themselves.


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VIDEODROME
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12 Feb 2012, 6:15 pm

So why did they close Alcatraz?



shrox
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12 Feb 2012, 7:05 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:
So why did they close Alcatraz?


They found out allot of people can swim more than a mile...



artrat
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12 Feb 2012, 9:01 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I think it would be interesting to see if there is a significant difference in empathy between pro and anti death penalty people.

i wonder why so many antiabortion types just happen to be pro-death-penalty also.


I'm against against both. I see both abortion and the death penalty as gross violations of human rights.

I agree with you.


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abacacus
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12 Feb 2012, 9:08 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:

I think that's a false dilemma. You don't have to either support the death penalty or believe in rehabilitation. There is a third option: Lock criminals away to protect society, but keep in mind that they might be innocent (i.e., treat them humanely and don't kill them).


Why? If they are in for life with no parole, why keep them alive? They are effectively dead anyway, they will never be free again. No need to waste money on them.


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kestrel
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12 Feb 2012, 11:01 pm

shrox wrote:
I had a toy gun that shot pennies.

I had one that shot rubber bands.



CrazyCatLord
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12 Feb 2012, 11:54 pm

abacacus wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:

I think that's a false dilemma. You don't have to either support the death penalty or believe in rehabilitation. There is a third option: Lock criminals away to protect society, but keep in mind that they might be innocent (i.e., treat them humanely and don't kill them).


Why? If they are in for life with no parole, why keep them alive? They are effectively dead anyway, they will never be free again. No need to waste money on them.


Like I said (in three posts in this thread), we should keep them alive because they might be innocent.

Judicial errors happen all the time. Even DNA evidence can and has been planted. Even alleged rapists have been wrongly accused, in some cases by children. We can let people out of jail if they turn out to be innocent, but we can't bring them back to life. If the judicial system kills only one innocent person in the name of the people, we are all murderers.



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12 Feb 2012, 11:57 pm

I think that the correct role of a justice system is to protect society, not simply to dole out punishment.

So, if I was going to support the death penalty, I would have to see solid evidence that the death penalty protects society, perhaps by providing an extreme incentive to not commit crime. But everything that I have read seems to indicate that the death penalty does not protect society. It just makes certain people feel better. Well, that's not the point.