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MCalavera
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24 Feb 2012, 4:56 pm

simon_says wrote:
So god wasnt at work in the rise of communism?

As usual "god" gets all the credit for good things and we take all the blame for bad. Great work if you can get it.


That's why he's God. :hail:



Vigilans
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24 Feb 2012, 5:06 pm

simon_says wrote:
So god wasnt at work in the rise of communism?

As usual "god" gets all the credit for good things and we take all the blame for bad. Great work if you can get it.


Yep...

Image


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cw10
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24 Feb 2012, 5:26 pm

simon_says wrote:
So god wasnt at work in the rise of communism?

As usual "god" gets all the credit for good things and we take all the blame for bad. Great work if you can get it.


Some lessons can't be taught, they have to be learned through experience. And isn't experience the reason we exist? If I experience nothing what's the point to living at all? :)



shrox
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24 Feb 2012, 5:28 pm

Vigilans wrote:
simon_says wrote:
So god wasnt at work in the rise of communism?

As usual "god" gets all the credit for good things and we take all the blame for bad. Great work if you can get it.


Yep...

Image


True of many things, and funny with all of them. This guy comes to mind.

Image

Is a guy who thinks it was aliens an "Alienst"?



simon_says
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24 Feb 2012, 5:42 pm

Quote:
Some lessons can't be taught, they have to be learned through experience. And isn't experience the reason we exist? If I experience nothing what's the point to living at all?


One lesson that I learned a long time ago; Wishing things were a certain way doesnt make it so.



MCalavera
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24 Feb 2012, 8:08 pm

cw10 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
So god wasnt at work in the rise of communism?

As usual "god" gets all the credit for good things and we take all the blame for bad. Great work if you can get it.


Some lessons can't be taught, they have to be learned through experience. And isn't experience the reason we exist? If I experience nothing what's the point to living at all? :)


I didn't ask to live for suffering and pain, though. And neither did many I know.

Stop excusing your god from the painful things that happen to mankind like an inconsiderate enabler does for a narcissistic parent who abuses his/her children.



1062651stAvenue
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24 Feb 2012, 8:39 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Got ants in your pants? What's with the attitude? If I didn't reply, it's to save time and energy for myself. I can't keep trying to reason with people who refuse to be reasoned with especially on the same topic.

If you paid attention to my reply here, I never said evil existed in the objective manner. But suffering definitely exists, no doubt about that. A God that cares would not have created a world in which living beings are compelled to suffer.


OK, fair enough.

An honest question: Are you suffering now as you're reading my reply? It can't be easy, trying to reason with someone who is an opponent of what you stand for - it's perfectly possible, and I'm not being sarcastic, that you MAY be suffering now.

This is just my point. You can substitute the above example for anything else you like, but the point is that your freedom is what's making it possible. You could walk away from WP. You could, I suppose, just resolve to avoid looking at my replies or anything else I've written. There's a few options there, but the point is made: you're not being compelled.

When you talk about natural disasters, like a tsunami or an earthquake, the fact of the matter is that the laws of physics only work one way. If you happen to be in the area when the tsunami strikes, it does what the laws of physics and geography etc say it should do, and there you go, you're dead. But it's the laws of physics governing tsunamis that are also operating in the room you're sitting in at the moment. Why rail against God when all he's done is make the Universe in a consistent way?

When you think about torture, ok so you hopefully wouldn't choose that: it's the (freedom of the) torturer who's doing the choosing. There's a well-documented case of the Nazis hanging a young boy in a concentration camp. Someone crys out "Where is God now?" It's the boys Father who says "There is God. That is where he is". Of course, he's pointing at his son. So even though God didn't influence the soldiers to hang the child, he suffers in solidarity with the human race. Just the same as God didn't force the soldiers on the road to Calvary to do what they did, or to crucify Jesus. God suffers in solidarity with the human race. Let no-one tell me that God doesn't care about human suffering! Let no-one tell me that the boss is unaware of what's going on on the shop floor!

Oh and no, I don't have ants in my pants Mr Calavera, and btw, I wouldn't swap your problems for mine any day. :D



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24 Feb 2012, 8:49 pm

1062651stAvenue wrote:
OK, fair enough.

An honest question: Are you suffering now as you're reading my reply? It can't be easy, trying to reason with someone who is an opponent of what you stand for - it's perfectly possible, and I'm not being sarcastic, that you MAY be suffering now.


No, I'm not suffering as far as my mind and feelings can tell.

Quote:
This is just my point. You can substitute the above example for anything else you like, but the point is that your freedom is what's making it possible. You could walk away from WP. You could, I suppose, just resolve to avoid looking at my replies or anything else I've written. There's a few options there, but the point is made: you're not being compelled.


If you think having a debate can be substituted with, let's say, being tortured to death by having your body chopped off part by part as you slowly die, then I really don't know what to say to this.

Quote:
When you talk about natural disasters, like a tsunami or an earthquake, the fact of the matter is that the laws of physics only work one way. If you happen to be in the area when the tsunami strikes, it does what the laws of physics and geography etc say it should do, and there you go, you're dead. But it's the laws of physics governing tsunamis that are also operating in the room you're sitting in at the moment. Why rail against God when all he's done is make the Universe in a consistent way?


Think carefully about what you just said in that last sentence and you'll know why.

Quote:
When you think about torture, ok so you hopefully wouldn't choose that: it's the (freedom of the) torturer who's doing the choosing. There's a well-documented case of the Nazis hanging a young boy in a concentration camp. Someone crys out "Where is God now?" It's the boys Father who says "There is God. That is where he is". Of course, he's pointing at his son. So even though God didn't influence the soldiers to hang the child, he suffers in solidarity with the human race. Just the same as God didn't force the soldiers on the road to Calvary to do what they did, or to crucify Jesus. God suffers in solidarity with the human race. Let no-one tell me that God doesn't care about human suffering! Let no-one tell me that the boss is unaware of what's going on on the shop floor!


God, if he exists, doesn't give a s**t about human suffering. Actions speak louder than vain words. Your argument only demonstrates how much your god really "cares".

Quote:
Oh and no, I don't have ants in my pants Mr Calavera, and btw, I wouldn't swap your problems for mine any day. :D


I would gladly have ants in my pants anytime than to be a victim of delusion thanks to religion and faith.



1062651stAvenue
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24 Feb 2012, 9:09 pm

Declension wrote:
You seem to be confusing two different issues: whether Christianity is true, and whether Christianity is useful.


NO Mr Declension, I'm not. I'm joining the two ideas together in one paragraph. It's a perfectly reasonable usage of English. We can discuss whether Christianity is true in another thread, but my point is that you are not even reasonable enough to accept that Christianity has its uses. Why would anyone Christian have the patience to reason with you guys when you can't even concede we've got our good points?

Look at Sir Alex Ferguson when he's being interviewed about an upcoming match, OR, just after it's finished. He concedes the strength of the opposition! And this is against teams who he wants to annihilate if possible. I'm not fishing for compliments, I'm just saying that you seem to be locked in this bitter Universe. Come on out.



Declension
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24 Feb 2012, 9:23 pm

1062651stAvenue wrote:
you are not even reasonable enough to accept that Christianity has its uses. Why would anyone Christian have the patience to reason with you guys when you can't even concede we've got our good points?


I have never claimed that Christianity is not useful. I'm not on whatever "team" you imagine me to be on. And you just confused the two issues again. You say:
1062651stAvenue wrote:
Why would anyone Christian have the patience to reason (find out what is true) with you guys when you can't even concede we've got our good points (useful properties)?

This sentence doesn't make sense. If I "concede" that Christianity is socially useful, this isn't actually a "concession" at all, in the relevant sense. I have not given you anything that helps your argument.

EDIT: Sorry, it actually does make sense, on a certain reading. I guess you could be saying that it's obvious that Christianity is socially useful, so you will dismiss anyone who claims that it isn't as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about in any sphere. But I dunno, it seems to me that the two issues are entirely separate. A person could have well-founded opinions about one, and terrible opinions about the other.



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24 Feb 2012, 9:35 pm

Declension wrote:
1062651stAvenue wrote:
you are not even reasonable enough to accept that Christianity has its uses. Why would anyone Christian have the patience to reason with you guys when you can't even concede we've got our good points?


I have never claimed that Christianity is not useful. I'm not on whatever "team" you imagine me to be on. And you just confused the two issues again. You say:
1062651stAvenue wrote:
Why would anyone Christian have the patience to reason (find out what is true) with you guys when you can't even concede we've got our good points (useful properties)?

This sentence doesn't make sense. If I "concede" that Christianity is socially useful, this isn't actually a "concession" at all, in the relevant sense. I have not given you anything that helps your argument.

EDIT: Sorry, it actually does make sense, on a certain reading. I guess you could be saying that it's obvious that Christianity is socially useful, so you will dismiss anyone who claims that it isn't as someone who doesn't know what they're talking about in any sphere. But I dunno, it seems to me that the two issues are entirely separate. A person could have well-founded opinions about one, and terrible opinions about the other.


Many thanks for the edit - yes this is what I mean.



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24 Feb 2012, 9:46 pm

1062651stAvenue wrote:
Ooooh so you're not really certain about it? I'm still using the computer, my friend - it's me and my free will! You don't even mention free will, its like, how can I put this, that you're all angry with God for giving you Asperger Syndrome, so you just sulk and say "He's not there. Show me the evidence". There's no attempt by the way to answer the OP, you're just over there in the corner doing your little thing. Stop sulking.


This is such condescending BS. I'm not angry at something that doesn't exist. I get angered by the actions of stupid people in the name of something that doesn't exist. I don't claim to have all the answers, like you and others like you claim. I have doubt, and the drive to discover the truth. You cannot honestly say the same, since you have already made up your mind about what the truth is


1062651stAvenue wrote:
You have a VERY short memory - short enough to put the facts your way, but it won't help. Joseph Stalin was an athiest, his orders resulted in countless murders. The same with Pol Pot, he espoused no religion and a greater meglomaniac, the world has yet to see. And finally, Idi Amin's Ugandan reign saw state enemies slaughtered for their requests for self-determination. Oh no you won't persuade me that atheism is benign - these three between them killed far more put together than ALL of the Crusades.


So Atheists = Communists/Totalitarians? Stalin killed anyone who disagreed with him. His motivations, as well as Pol Pot and others who try to crush religious (and basically all other free thought, which you seem to neglect considering) thought are to control the minds of the people and ensure there is no competition to their own cult of personality- the state religion of most dictatorships, Communist or Right wing. You assume their tyranny was in the name of the atheism. This is simply incorrect.

You probably didn't know Stalin let the church "return" during the Second World War because he understood the morale boost it gave and gave him a major public relations victory with his people. He was an opportunist, really. If there is one leader who really did hate theism and make a point to persecute it, it was probably Enver Hoxha of Albania, and strangely enough you guys never seem to mention him, instead going for the big cliche names who are themselves flawed arguments in this context. Showing how well learned and informed most willing to go down this road are :roll: Hoxhaism involved active campaigns to combat religion in Albania. Even so, what he stands for is certainly not what I or other atheists stand for.

You aught to consider that "Stalinism", "Maoism", "Hoxhaism" are what people were killed for, not "atheism"

While on the topic of Uganda, I wonder what your thoughts on the LRA are. Your brethren are fighting to create a Christian theocracy based on the ten commandments- and using tens of thousands of child soldiers to do it! Bravo!

Why do none of you seem to understand what atheism even "is"?

1062651stAvenue wrote:
Marx was the first to fundamentally question the truth value of religion.


Wrong. Atheism is not a ~160 year old word... Go back a few thousand years, and you would be correct

1062651stAvenue wrote:
The writings on his grave in London shows his concern: "The philosophers of the world have interpreted the world in certain ways, the point however is to change it". Marx didn't think that religion could do this, he believed religion was part of the system that deprived the workers of the fruits of their labours. Call it a grand awakening if you want, but he didn't bring about a just society - in Russia he simply paved the way for putting power and wealth into the hands of the Bolsheviks. This has taken years to dismantle, people have been believing the lie of Marxist collectivism for that long. I do accept that it's a line in the sand by quoting Marx, and I have studied other philosophers. I do believe that God was definitely at work in the fall of Communism.


Marx was dead long before the creation of any Communist society. You also should not be surprised that the USSR did end up going that way; militarists ended up dominating the post-Tsarist government, when you consider both our countries (Canada & US), the UK and France *all* sent forces to Russia to crush Bolshevism in its infancy by supporting the generally corrupt or ineffective "white" Russian factions. All this did was swell the Red Army's numbers to repel the "invaders"- invaders who had no idea what they were even fighting for! The Russian Civil War caused bloodthirsty types like Stalin to gain prominence, and the shadow of that war lies across all attempts at creating Communist societies in the 20th century. That being said I do not agree with Communism so please don't take this as my endorsement of it, my own feelings on the system are that it is flawed, and that states should not promote belief or non belief


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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


cw10
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24 Feb 2012, 10:43 pm

MCalavera wrote:
cw10 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
So god wasnt at work in the rise of communism?

As usual "god" gets all the credit for good things and we take all the blame for bad. Great work if you can get it.


Some lessons can't be taught, they have to be learned through experience. And isn't experience the reason we exist? If I experience nothing what's the point to living at all? :)


I didn't ask to live for suffering and pain, though. And neither did many I know.

Stop excusing your god from the painful things that happen to mankind like an inconsiderate enabler does for a narcissistic parent who abuses his/her children.


The art is learning how to fix the pain. Once this knowledge is attained it can be shared with anyone who are willing to understand it.



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24 Feb 2012, 11:13 pm

While we learn how to fix the pain, let's not give so much credit to God for all the loving things we humans (not God) do without blaming him for the suffering he's compelled us to have.

Otherwise, don't impose the existence of a loving God on us because we don't believe in such an entity.



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25 Feb 2012, 12:55 am

cw10 wrote:
NarcissusSavage wrote:
This quote is not reliable.

49 + 3 is not 55.

If interpreted slightly differently;

49 + 3 + 3 + more, still does not equal 55.

I reject this source as it is inherently flawed and inaccurate.


cw10 wrote:
It says of the 55, not 55 total.


NarcissusSavage wrote:
And so...CW10 fails today's math lesson.


/math lesson

I have 5 apples. 3 of the apples are red. How many apples do I have?

A: I have 5 apples.


This is more appropriate;
I have 5 apples. 3 of the apples are red. Two are green, and several others are of another similar color.
As you can see, 3+2+(more) does not equal 5...

Very...very basic math.


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cw10
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25 Feb 2012, 1:00 am

MCalavera wrote:
While we learn how to fix the pain, let's not give so much credit to God for all the loving things we humans (not God) do without blaming him for the suffering he's compelled us to have.

Otherwise, don't impose the existence of a loving God on us because we don't believe in such an entity.


Then what are you doing in a philosophical and religious thread?

I don't spend time in tattoo shops because I don't believe in tattoos. Not my thing.