Multiculturalism Does Work: A Better World Is Possible

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TheDarkMage
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20 Mar 2012, 1:42 pm

phil777 wrote:
Most of us likely do not know about it well, but we hear enough of it from you guys to get an educated guess about the situation, which allows us to comment or at the very least form an opinion about it.


okay lets iron this out.

i do not deny any of the history involved. every country is similar to an extent. but the current day FACT is that we are overcrowded, we are in serious trouble, nobody is doing anything about it.

that is why current day multiculturalism cannot work here.


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phil777
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20 Mar 2012, 1:44 pm

Tequila wrote:
phil777 wrote:
Do you feel that the people that have committed terrorist acts on the USA because it supports Israel and its actions.


They are the dregs of humanity.


(Should've phrased that better, bah, my bad...)

Yet they are still part of this humanity. The fact that their rights are being so blatantly violated is why they're resorting to such desperate tactics.

It is good however, that there seems to be a slight shift for some towards a more pacifist movement. Makes the Israeli army look bad when they attack them.



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20 Mar 2012, 1:44 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
TheDarkMage brought up the culture of Britain as being something to be preserved. i was explaining something he apprarently did not understand about his culture.


whre did you get the idea i did not understand my culture. all the history made our culture as it is today. that should be protected.


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visagrunt
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20 Mar 2012, 1:45 pm

The trouble here is that we are lumping together multiple issues.

First things first, let's dump the term, "multiculturalism." It implies ethnicity, and fails to include a number of groups relegated to the fringes, such as LGBT people and people with disabilities. "Diversity," is a more inclusive word that gets to the heart of the matter.

The capacity of Great Britain to support her population is not a question of multiculturalism--it's a question of economics. And the simple fact of the matter is that Britain absolutely needs migration. First, the British-born population is aging, and shrinking and there are insufficient people in the younger age cohorts to provide sufficient tax revenue to support ongoing program needs from people who are leaving the labour force. Second, far from taking jobs from the native born, migrants are primarily taking up work that the native born are unwilling to do. This is an economic reality in the UK just as much as in the US. And if people willing to do the work at the wages offered were not there, the jobs would not go to the native-born at living wages, they would cease to exist, because the margins available to employers are not sustainable at the wage levels demanded by native born workers. Third, the majority of wages earned by migrant workers are spent within the country--on housing and on food. This creates economic activity and generates tax revenue.

Now, a fundamental retooling of the economy may be required--but that retooling is culturally neutral. It doesn't matter whether a worker is born in Britain, a british citizen born abroad, a european national or in some other category. Economics doesn't care about your ethnicity, only your productivity.

Great Britain is--and always has been--a multicultural island. There is no such thing as "British" culture--that is merely the imposition of a hegemonic culture onto people. The Cornish, the Scots and the Welsh will very clearly maintain (in their own languages) that they are not English, and they are "British" only because of English hegemony. While I will certainly concede that the Cornish, the Scottish and the Welsh have a territorial claim to Great Britain--indeed, superior to the English claim (and unlike the Manx and the Irish who have no territorial link to Great Britain), that does not imply that there is something inherently "British" about any of these cultures.

And as for my abiltity to speak on this subject, I am a British Citizen by birth, of Cornish and Scottish ancestry, educated and professionally qualified in the United Kingdom. I am not a stranger offering an opinion, I am as British as the next person with a passport that says, "British Citizen" on the biodata page. And as far as I am concerned those who advocate for shutting the gates are advocating for nothing less than stagnation.


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20 Mar 2012, 1:45 pm

TheDarkMage wrote:
phil777 wrote:
Most of us likely do not know about it well, but we hear enough of it from you guys to get an educated guess about the situation, which allows us to comment or at the very least form an opinion about it.


okay lets iron this out.

i do not deny any of the history involved. every country is similar to an extent. but the current day FACT is that we are overcrowded, we are in serious trouble, nobody is doing anything about it.

that is why current day multiculturalism cannot work here.

too late, you are already multicultural.

immigration is a separate issue from the current state of your country.


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TheDarkMage
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20 Mar 2012, 1:46 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
immigration is a separate issue from the current state of your country.


WHAT????? are you for real?

immigration is the number one issue regarding the state of our country


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20 Mar 2012, 1:48 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Second, far from taking jobs from the native born, migrants are primarily taking up work that the native born are unwilling to do.


Like what? Perhaps they're willing to work for below UK minimum wage. The benefits system has a part to play in this, but foreign (other EU) workers are more easily exploited.

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This is an economic reality in the UK just as much as in the US. And if people willing to do the work at the wages offered were not there, the jobs would not go to the native-born at living wages, they would cease to exist, because the margins available to employers are not sustainable at the wage levels demanded by native born workers.


What happens when the immigrants we import get old/refuse to do the work? We will have to import more and more to support these until the whole thing falls to pieces.



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20 Mar 2012, 2:00 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
TheDarkMage wrote:
phil777 wrote:
Most of us likely do not know about it well, but we hear enough of it from you guys to get an educated guess about the situation, which allows us to comment or at the very least form an opinion about it.


okay lets iron this out.

i do not deny any of the history involved. every country is similar to an extent. but the current day FACT is that we are overcrowded, we are in serious trouble, nobody is doing anything about it.

that is why current day multiculturalism cannot work here.

too late, you are already multicultural.

immigration is a separate issue from the current state of your country.


Ok, in that case the "plight of women" is a completely different issue from the patriarchal society.

The current state of a country is related to economics, immigration has an effect on economics, therefore the current state of the country is related to immigration. There is also the issue of unemployment benefits and such being required through the EU or other trade agreements to apply equally to any worker from within the area covered by the treaty.



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20 Mar 2012, 2:10 pm

my post was missing a word. i was saying that muticulturalism is distinct from immigration. multiculturalism involve the manner in which current cultures are treated in a nation. immigration involves allowing new people into a country. a multicultural society can still limit and even stop immigration entirely


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20 Mar 2012, 2:13 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
a multicultural society can still limit and even stop immigration entirely


I wouldn't want to stop immigration altogether, God no. In fact, I don't think even the BNP wants that.



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20 Mar 2012, 2:16 pm

Tequila wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
a multicultural society can still limit and even stop immigration entirely


I wouldn't want to stop immigration altogether, God no. In fact, I don't think even the BNP wants that.


yes its not about ending it. theres nothing wrong with sensible numbers of NEEDED immigrants coming in. it naturally balances out with people who leave.

immigration now is almost unlimited. they flood in every day.


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20 Mar 2012, 2:22 pm

TheDarkMage wrote:
immigration now is almost unlimited. they flood in every day.


Latest figures was something like 600,000 for last year - i.e. over 11,000 people a week.



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20 Mar 2012, 2:24 pm

Tequila wrote:
TheDarkMage wrote:
immigration now is almost unlimited. they flood in every day.


Latest figures was something like 600,000 for last year - i.e. over 11,000 people a week.


thats bad.


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20 Mar 2012, 6:18 pm

TheDarkMage wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Latest figures was something like 600,000 for last year - i.e. over 11,000 people a week.


thats bad.


That's uncritical.

The population of the United Kingdom is approximately 62,000,000. So the gross intake is less than 1% of the population. However, that does not take into account migration out--how many people are leaving the UK annually? According to ONS statistics, gross migration in 2010 was 575, 000, but net migration was only 239,000, or less than 0.5%

The birth rate is 1.96 per woman, which is below the replacement rate of 2.075. So, without migration, the United Kingdom would have negative population growth--and the resultant negative economic growth that goes hand in hand with it.

Meanwhile, let's consider how significant this "flood" of immigrants is.

As of the 2001 census, White British people made up over 85% of the population, with White Irish and White (other) making up a further 6.47. No other ethnic group had more than 1.2% of the population. If we look at England in Wales in isolation we have some more recent data from ONS studies last year which saw the non-white population of England reach approximately 15%. A rise, to be sure, but hardly the earth shattering shift that the doomsayers are proclaiming.


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20 Mar 2012, 6:33 pm

visagrunt wrote:
So the gross intake is less than 1% of the population.


1% every year, combined with the tendency for some - not all - people to stick in ethnic ghettos? This isn't a good thing.



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21 Mar 2012, 12:06 am

if 1% of the immigrantskeep to themselves, then that is 1% of 1% of the population that isn't mixing too much. it's not really a high number.

immigrants tend to mix more after the first generation as well. they become more integrated into the greater society as time passes. so you wouldn't see an accumulation of ethnic minority immigrants in most cases.

interesting that you are using the word "ghetto". do the immigrants tend to be poorer than the general population? if it is the case then perhaps helping them to improve their socioeconomic status will get them out of the "ghetto".


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