Page 1 of 2 [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

22 Mar 2012, 7:57 pm

That in cases of especially heinous crimes, such as cases of serial murder, I tend to feel more sorry for the killer than I do for his/her victims?

I feel sorry for them because they have never really known love. Also, I think that none of them really have a choice as to how they are, they were simply born that way, or made that way over time. I do feel bad for the victims too of course, but I don't really think about them as much for some reason, because I know that everyone is gonna feel sorry for the victims.

I'm also a bit cynical about the fact that many victims, understandably but still, want nothing but revenge, and cynical because humanity itself is kind of a cruel species, so why would the victims' families be that much different? Isn't the typical human not THAT much different from a serial killer when it comes down to it? I mean the people who participate in genocide are not monsters for the most part; they are ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I hate violence and cruelty of all kinds. I am a pacifist and I condemn serial killing as much as I condemn war and the death penalty. But I can't really feel that righteously hateful towards serial killers because I, and almost everyone in Western society, indirectly supports murder, slavery, rape, pollution and other evil things via our consumerism. I end up ... just feeling sorry for them, because their very existence is tragic. Serial killers are the product of the general lovelessness and exclusivity of the human species.



Last edited by donnie_darko on 22 Mar 2012, 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

22 Mar 2012, 8:03 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
That in cases of especially heinous crimes, such as cases of serial murder, I tend to feel more sorry for the killer than I do for his/her victims?

I feel sorry for them because they have never really known love. Also, I think that none of them really have a choice as to how they are, they were simply born that way, or made that way over time. I do feel bad for the victims too of course, but I don't really think about them as much for some reason, because I know that everyone is gonna feel sorry for the victims.

I'm also a bit cynical about the fact that many victims, understandably but still, want nothing but revenge, and cynical because humanity itself is kind of a cruel species, so why would the victims' families be that much different? Isn't the typical human not THAT much different from a serial killer when it comes down to it? I mean the people who participate in genocide are not monsters for the most part; they are ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I hate violence and cruelty of all kinds. But I can't really feel that righteously hateful towards serial killers because I, and almost everyone in Western society, indirectly supports murder, slavery, rape, pollution and other evil things via our consumerism. I end up ... just feeling sorry for them, because their very existence is tragic. Serial killers are the product of the general lovelessness and exclusivity of the human species.


Your not born a killer so I cant really agree with that but I understand where you coming from.



donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

22 Mar 2012, 8:06 pm

Joker wrote:

Your not born a killer so I cant really agree with that but I understand where you coming from.


I would argue some of them basically are born as predators. I do think even the worst psychopath has a shred of compassion/humanity, as someone being 100% evil is just as ridiculous a concept as someone being perfect. However I do think it generally takes some kind of abuse to really trigger it to the point of being murderous. I think even Bundy and Dahmer, though they don't claim to be abused, actually probably were and don't even realize it or never admitted it.

I mean it's not like they could have chose to be good, loving people but simply preferred evil. IMO they really had no choice because of the way their brain is wired.



Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

22 Mar 2012, 8:10 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Joker wrote:

Your not born a killer so I cant really agree with that but I understand where you coming from.


I would argue some of them basically are born as predators. I do think even the worst psychopath has a shred of compassion/humanity, as someone being 100% evil is just as ridiculous a concept as someone being perfect. However I do think it generally takes some kind of abuse to really trigger it to the point of being murderous. I think even Bundy and Dahmer, though they don't claim to be abused, actually probably were and don't even realize it or never admitted it.

I mean it's not like they could have chose to be good, loving people but simply preferred evil. IMO they really had no choice because of the way their brain is wired.


Thats is something I can relate with I was beaten by my brothers step mother until I turned seven in school when people tried doing that to me I beat them up with out thinking about the consequence of my actions it made me have flashbacks to when she would beat the hell out of me to this day I have that problem from time to time.



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

22 Mar 2012, 8:15 pm

I don't sympathise with serial killers. Then again, I don't have massive amounts of sympathy for the victims of murders or their families. I do care a little bit, but nowhere near as much as other people seem to. I find the whole reaction that people have to things like the Bulger killers and Baby P incomprehensible. It's always worse when a child is killed, to most people - but to me, the fact that it was a kid doesn't make much difference. I always feel weird for this and I put it down to being on the autism spectrum. I don't mourn death in general to the same extent as other people. This is not a popular trait to have when growing up around the Irish Catholic community in England.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


Last edited by puddingmouse on 22 Mar 2012, 8:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

22 Mar 2012, 8:16 pm

Joker wrote:
Thats is something I can relate with I was beaten by my brothers step mother until I turned seven in school when people tried doing that to me I beat them up with out thinking about the consequence of my actions it made me have flashbacks to when she would beat the hell out of me to this day I have that problem from time to time.


Yes, as a small child I was often beaten by my older brother and stepfather and I would occasionally lash out into violent rages, not like anything that serious but when I was 7, I stabbed a kid I didn't even know with a pencil! I think because after a while my body started to 'enjoy' pain. I'm over that now, but I definitely think there is a connection between serial murder and masochism. I think serial killers 'get off' on being hated because they are masochists, but at the same time deep down they also want to be loved.

Another thing too - I disagree that serial killers lack empathy. I think rather, they have 'negative' empathy, if you will. When they inflict pain on others, they enjoy it, because they enjoy pain towards themselves, and are experiencing that indirectly through their victims. Then they experience the 'pleasureful' pain of being hated by the victims' families and society at large. Many of them actually welcome and want to be executed, not all of them but a lot of them.



Last edited by donnie_darko on 22 Mar 2012, 8:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

22 Mar 2012, 8:19 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Another thing too - I disagree that serial killers lack empathy. I think rather, they have 'negative' empathy, if you will. When they inflict pain on others, they enjoy it, because they enjoy pain towards themselves, and are experiencing that indirectly through their victims. Then they experience the 'pleasureful' pain of being hated by the victims' families and society at large. Many of them actually welcome and want to be executed, not all of them but a lot of them.


I actually find your views on this insightful.


_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.


Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

22 Mar 2012, 8:20 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Joker wrote:
Thats is something I can relate with I was beaten by my brothers step mother until I turned seven in school when people tried doing that to me I beat them up with out thinking about the consequence of my actions it made me have flashbacks to when she would beat the hell out of me to this day I have that problem from time to time.


Yes, as a small child I was often beaten by my older brother and stepfather and I would occasionally lash out into violent rages, I think because after a while my body started to 'enjoy' pain. I'm over that now, but I definitely think there is a connection between serial murder and masochism. I think serial killers 'get off' on being hated because they are masochists, but at the same time deep down they also want to be loved.

Another thing too - I disagree that serial killers lack empathy. I think rather, they have 'negative' empathy, if you will. When they inflict pain on others, they enjoy it, because they enjoy pain towards themselves, and are experiencing that indirectly through their victims. Then they experience the 'pleasureful' pain of being hated by the victims' families and society at large. Many of them actually welcome and want to be executed, not all of them but a lot of them.


I was the same way and still enjoy some forms of pain I do that some serial killers where targets of bullies growing up society is to blame most of the time for serial killers people just snap it happens all the time in a way its human nature.



donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

22 Mar 2012, 8:20 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
I don't sympathise with serial killers. Then again, I don't have massive amounts of sympathy for the victims of murders or their families. I do care a little bit, but nowhere near as much as other people seem to. I find the whole reaction that people have to things like the Bulger killers and Baby P incomprehensible. It's always worse when a child is killed, to most people - but to me, the fact that it was a kid doesn't make much difference. I always feel weird for this and I put it down to being on the autism spectrum. I don't mourn death in general to the same extent as other people. Not a popular trait to have when growing up around the Irish Catholic community in England.


Yeah, I'm really not sure why I feel sorry for them. Actually, I don't really care about most of them, but Dahmer for some reason, I actually feel really bad for. Even though his crimes were of (imo) a more horrific nature than Bundy's, it somehow seems difficult to totally blame him, almost because the crimes were just THAT insane. Not sure why, maybe because he wasn't manipulative or mean spirited, just seemed genuinely crazy and not in control. And the way he was killed in jail too, it's all kind of like a tragedy you only find in movies and ancient sagas.



Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

22 Mar 2012, 8:23 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
I don't sympathise with serial killers. Then again, I don't have massive amounts of sympathy for the victims of murders or their families. I do care a little bit, but nowhere near as much as other people seem to. I find the whole reaction that people have to things like the Bulger killers and Baby P incomprehensible. It's always worse when a child is killed, to most people - but to me, the fact that it was a kid doesn't make much difference. I always feel weird for this and I put it down to being on the autism spectrum. I don't mourn death in general to the same extent as other people. Not a popular trait to have when growing up around the Irish Catholic community in England.


Yeah, I'm really not sure why I feel sorry for them. Actually, I don't really care about most of them, but Dahmer for some reason, I actually feel really bad for. Even though his crimes were of (imo) a more horrific nature than Bundy's, it somehow seems difficult to totally blame him, almost because the crimes were just THAT insane. Not sure why, maybe because he wasn't manipulative or mean spirited, just seemed genuinely crazy and not in control. And the way he was killed in jail too, it's all kind of like a tragedy you only find in movies and ancient sagas.


It is sad though how people end up like Damher did and yes some people do feel sorry for him as for bundy he was born a sociopath so most people like him turn out to be serial killers.



donnie_darko
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Nov 2009
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,981

22 Mar 2012, 8:59 pm

Joker wrote:
It is sad though how people end up like Damher did and yes some people do feel sorry for him as for bundy he was born a sociopath so most people like him turn out to be serial killers.


Yeah, I don't really buy Bundy's deathbed conversion at all. Had I been alive in 1989, I would have opposed his execution, and I do think it's sick how people were partying outside the prison, but honestly, I can't say I care that much.

In the case of Dahmer though, I actually think if he was mentally normal he would have been a pretty nice person.



Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

22 Mar 2012, 10:06 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Joker wrote:
It is sad though how people end up like Damher did and yes some people do feel sorry for him as for bundy he was born a sociopath so most people like him turn out to be serial killers.


Yeah, I don't really buy Bundy's deathbed conversion at all. Had I been alive in 1989, I would have opposed his execution, and I do think it's sick how people were partying outside the prison, but honestly, I can't say I care that much.

In the case of Dahmer though, I actually think if he was mentally normal he would have been a pretty nice person.


I thank so to but I believe that Dahmer let his implusive nature control him and was the main reason why he started killing people.



Pandora_Box
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,299

22 Mar 2012, 10:23 pm

I sympathize with certain killers more than their victims. Such as "school shootings" I was the kid in the position of the gun a long time ago. Of course I never brought a gun to school, but my point is this that when you don't have anywhere to go. When no one listens to you, the students continue to isolate and tease you. The principal and the people in position of authority will not listen to you, you become very frustrated. You have no recourse and sometimes you take out that recourse in a sitaution where you do. I feel and completely understand why someone would bring a gun to school. I absolutely understand and sympathize a lot of the time with the school shooter when they discover that he was heavily bullied and isolated. That isn't good for anyone's psychi.



Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

22 Mar 2012, 10:28 pm

Pandora_Box wrote:
I sympathize with certain killers more than their victims. Such as "school shootings" I was the kid in the position of the gun a long time ago. Of course I never brought a gun to school, but my point is this that when you don't have anywhere to go. When no one listens to you, the students continue to isolate and tease you. The principal and the people in position of authority will not listen to you, you become very frustrated. You have no recourse and sometimes you take out that recourse in a sitaution where you do. I feel and completely understand why someone would bring a gun to school. I absolutely understand and sympathize a lot of the time with the school shooter when they discover that he was heavily bullied and isolated. That isn't good for anyone's psychi.


Most school shooters where bullied I was bullied in school but I used my hands as wepons and not guns but I understand where your coming from.



visagrunt
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2009
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,118
Location: Vancouver, BC

23 Mar 2012, 10:25 am

Many of us are inclined to sympathize with the underdog when it comes to conflict. It offends our sense of fairness when one person is subjected to the overwhelming force of another.

Accused criminals are very subject to an ongoing dehumanization. Their liberty is constrained, they are deprived of privacy, they lose some ability to withhold consent to physical interference and medical examination. And as our political Zeitgeist gathers more and more momentum behind notions of ever harsher treatment of criminals, there is little, if any, recourse.

There is a middle ground, however. It is entirely possible to take positions on the criminal justice system that favour prevention and rehabilitation, in which the exercise of brute force is not merely a last resort, but acknowledged as a failure of better methods.


_________________
--James


Pandora_Box
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,299

23 Mar 2012, 12:05 pm

Joker wrote:
Pandora_Box wrote:
I sympathize with certain killers more than their victims. Such as "school shootings" I was the kid in the position of the gun a long time ago. Of course I never brought a gun to school, but my point is this that when you don't have anywhere to go. When no one listens to you, the students continue to isolate and tease you. The principal and the people in position of authority will not listen to you, you become very frustrated. You have no recourse and sometimes you take out that recourse in a sitaution where you do. I feel and completely understand why someone would bring a gun to school. I absolutely understand and sympathize a lot of the time with the school shooter when they discover that he was heavily bullied and isolated. That isn't good for anyone's psychi.


Most school shooters where bullied I was bullied in school but I used my hands as wepons and not guns but I understand where your coming from.


And I fought back with my intelligence. But I completely understand where someone may feel that they have nowhere else to go.