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Joker
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22 Mar 2012, 7:33 pm

The liberal class plays a vital role in a democracy. It gives moral legitimacy to the state. It makes limited forms of dissent and incremental change possible. The liberal class posits itself as the conscience of the nation. It permits us, through its appeal to public virtues and the public good, to define ourselves as a good and noble people. Most importantly, on behalf of the power elite the liberal class serves as bulwarks against radical movements by offering a safety valve for popular frustrations and discontentment by discrediting those who talk of profound structural change. Once this class loses its social and political role then the delicate fabric of a democracy breaks down and the liberal class, along with the values it espouses, becomes an object of ridicule and hatred. The door that has been opened to proto-fascists has been opened by a bankrupt liberalism

The Death of the Liberal Class examines the failure of the liberal class to confront the rise of the corporate state and the consequences of a liberalism that has become profoundly bankrupted. Hedges argues there are five pillars of the liberal establishment – the press, liberal religious institutions, labor unions, universities and the Democratic Party— and that each of these institutions, more concerned with status and privilege than justice and progress, sold out the constituents they represented. In doing so, the liberal class has become irrelevant to society at large and ultimately the corporate power elite they once served.



DC
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22 Mar 2012, 7:41 pm

What exactly is the point of copying and pasting a book description from amazon and posting it wholesale as a new thread?

That is word for word, you haven't even tried to turn it into a debating point.

Do you get paid for doing this?



Joker
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22 Mar 2012, 7:45 pm

DC wrote:
What exactly is the point of copying and pasting a book description from amazon and posting it wholesale as a new thread?

That is word for word, you haven't even tried to turn it into a debating point.

Do you get paid for doing this?


No I just thought Liberals would love this book the point being I though they would like to debate about it its a wonderbar book.



Declension
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22 Mar 2012, 7:58 pm

I kinda like Chris Hedges, but he sometimes lays on the "lone Cassandra" schtick a bit thick. Also, I can't quite get over the extent to which he is literally a preacher. He reminds me of the Chaplain at the Anglican primary school I went to. Always trying to make tenuous connections between things in order to prove that society is in a terrible state of decay...

That said, I think that he is bang-on about the death of the liberal class. And it's not just in America, it's all over the Western world. The media has become the propaganda arm of the capitalist state. The slogan of the times is "There Is No Alternative!" As soon as someone is slightly critical of the current system, people immediately start saying "There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.



Joker
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22 Mar 2012, 7:59 pm

Declension wrote:
I kinda like Chris Hedges, but he sometimes lays on the "lone Cassandra" schtick a bit thick. Also, I can't quite get over the extent to which he is literally a preacher. He reminds me of the Chaplain at the Anglican primary school I went to. Always trying to make tenuous connections between things in order to prove that society is in a terrible state of decay...

That said, I think that he is bang-on about the death of the liberal class. And it's not just in America, it's all over the Western world. The media has become the propaganda arm of the capitalist state. The slogan of the times is "There Is No Alternative!" As soon as someone is slightly critical of the current system, people immediately start saying "There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


Chris Hedges is no preacher he wrote a book calling fundies fascist.



donnie_darko
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22 Mar 2012, 8:02 pm

Declension wrote:
"There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


I find it funny that neocons still claim that 1989 proved capitalism worked better than communism when 1) Soviets were not true communists and 2) 2007 proved that capitalism is flawed.



Declension
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22 Mar 2012, 8:04 pm

Joker wrote:
Chris Hedges is no preacher he wrote a book calling fundies fascist.


Who says that preachers can't tell it like it is?

I'm more referring to his style of speech and writing, rather than the content. He was trained as a seminarian in the liberal church, and it shows. He has a burning desire to sweep up a million phenomena into a sort of vague blob, point at the blob, and say "look how everything is terrible!"

I read a book of his which went from pro wrestling, to pornography, to free-market economics, to the Iraq war.... as if these were all symptoms of the same malady.



Joker
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22 Mar 2012, 8:05 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Declension wrote:
"There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


I find it funny that neocons still claim that 1989 proved capitalism worked better than communism when 1) Soviets were not true communists and 2) 2007 proved that capitalism is flawed.


True the Soviets where similiar to communist but where not pure communists and yes 2007 was not a good year for capitalism.



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22 Mar 2012, 8:13 pm

Joker wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Declension wrote:
"There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


I find it funny that neocons still claim that 1989 proved capitalism worked better than communism when 1) Soviets were not true communists and 2) 2007 proved that capitalism is flawed.


True the Soviets where similiar to communist but where not pure communists and yes 2007 was not a good year for capitalism.

The Soviets were not at all similar to communists. Communism is a stateless, classless society. The USSR was neither. Nor were the socialist, as democracy is a prerequisite for socialism.

But yes, it's depressing how even today's "socialist" parties have now turned to that bloody Third Way (that is, pre-Thatcher conservatism) and anyone who even suggests what used to be center-left policies is called a radical and a Marxist.



Joker
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22 Mar 2012, 8:17 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Joker wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Declension wrote:
"There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


I find it funny that neocons still claim that 1989 proved capitalism worked better than communism when 1) Soviets were not true communists and 2) 2007 proved that capitalism is flawed.


True the Soviets where similiar to communist but where not pure communists and yes 2007 was not a good year for capitalism.

The Soviets were not at all similar to communists. Communism is a stateless, classless society. The USSR was neither. Nor were the socialist, as democracy is a prerequisite for socialism.

But yes, it's depressing how even today's "socialist" parties have now turned to that bloody Third Way (that is, pre-Thatcher conservatism) and anyone who even suggests what used to be center-left policies is called a radical and a Marxist.


Marxist I have no problem with but if I dated one it would be weird since im a Fascist.



ruveyn
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22 Mar 2012, 9:07 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
Declension wrote:
"There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


I find it funny that neocons still claim that 1989 proved capitalism worked better than communism when 1) Soviets were not true communists and 2) 2007 proved that capitalism is flawed.


All economic systems are flawed. But communism and some of its socialist look-alikes tend not to work very well.

It is very simple. It is a practical impossibility to centrally control a complex industrial economic. It has to be self regulating to some degree. A command economy will not work for long. Why? The combinatory complexity of an economy which balances the production and exchange of literally millions of goods and services is beyond human comprehension. Also, humans tend to be self interested and are generally not willing to permanently subordinate them selves to the All.

ruveyn



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22 Mar 2012, 9:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
Declension wrote:
"There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


I find it funny that neocons still claim that 1989 proved capitalism worked better than communism when 1) Soviets were not true communists and 2) 2007 proved that capitalism is flawed.


All economic systems are flawed. But communism and some of its socialist look-alikes tend not to work very well.

It is very simple. It is a practical impossibility to centrally control a complex industrial economic. It has to be self regulating to some degree. A command economy will not work for long. Why? The combinatory complexity of an economy which balances the production and exchange of literally millions of goods and services is beyond human comprehension. Also, humans tend to be self interested and are generally not willing to permanently subordinate them selves to the All.

ruveyn

Not all socialists call for a centrally planned economy. There are things like market socialism and cooperatives. Even the idiots in the American Communist Party calls for the market to play a limited role in their fictitious post-revolution society.

I actually agree that central planning will probably never work. Being the control freak that I am I wish that wasn't the case, but unfortunately I just don't see it being able to work. The most we will ever be able to do is some macroeconomic planning and broad-stroke decisions (such as, for example, moving from fossil fuels to nuclear, or setting the number of people accepted to professional education programs to match the expected demand). And even those don't always work so well.



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23 Mar 2012, 4:09 am

Joker wrote:
Declension wrote:
I kinda like Chris Hedges, but he sometimes lays on the "lone Cassandra" schtick a bit thick. Also, I can't quite get over the extent to which he is literally a preacher. He reminds me of the Chaplain at the Anglican primary school I went to. Always trying to make tenuous connections between things in order to prove that society is in a terrible state of decay...

That said, I think that he is bang-on about the death of the liberal class. And it's not just in America, it's all over the Western world. The media has become the propaganda arm of the capitalist state. The slogan of the times is "There Is No Alternative!" As soon as someone is slightly critical of the current system, people immediately start saying "There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


Chris Hedges is no preacher he wrote a book calling fundies fascist.


Fundies fascists? He's right up my alley, then!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



DC
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23 Mar 2012, 8:46 am

I have never read the book but the author gave a lecture about it a couple of years ago.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYCvSntOI5s[/youtube]



Joker
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23 Mar 2012, 11:23 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Declension wrote:
I kinda like Chris Hedges, but he sometimes lays on the "lone Cassandra" schtick a bit thick. Also, I can't quite get over the extent to which he is literally a preacher. He reminds me of the Chaplain at the Anglican primary school I went to. Always trying to make tenuous connections between things in order to prove that society is in a terrible state of decay...

That said, I think that he is bang-on about the death of the liberal class. And it's not just in America, it's all over the Western world. The media has become the propaganda arm of the capitalist state. The slogan of the times is "There Is No Alternative!" As soon as someone is slightly critical of the current system, people immediately start saying "There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


Chris Hedges is no preacher he wrote a book calling fundies fascist.


Fundies fascists? He's right up my alley, then!

Most christians or jews that I know do not like the fundies they tend to give religion a even more negitive image which is saying a lot.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Kraichgauer
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23 Mar 2012, 11:31 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Declension wrote:
I kinda like Chris Hedges, but he sometimes lays on the "lone Cassandra" schtick a bit thick. Also, I can't quite get over the extent to which he is literally a preacher. He reminds me of the Chaplain at the Anglican primary school I went to. Always trying to make tenuous connections between things in order to prove that society is in a terrible state of decay...

That said, I think that he is bang-on about the death of the liberal class. And it's not just in America, it's all over the Western world. The media has become the propaganda arm of the capitalist state. The slogan of the times is "There Is No Alternative!" As soon as someone is slightly critical of the current system, people immediately start saying "There Is No Alternative! Communism doesn't work!" They have been trained to say this like circus monkeys.


Chris Hedges is no preacher he wrote a book calling fundies fascist.


Fundies fascists? He's right up my alley, then!

Most christians or jews that I know do not like the fundies they tend to give religion a even more negitive image which is saying a lot.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Oh, absolutely! I'm a practicing Lutheran, and I've met very few people in my church who would fit the criteria as a fundamentalist. It's because of that reason why I'm so incensed over them, as I know they hardly represent mainline religion, but hold a great deal of the political influence in this country.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer