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Grebels
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01 Apr 2012, 11:13 am

ValentineWiggin[/quote]
How does wanting something translate into belief in it?
[quote="Grebels wrote:

I could want a Ferrari but not believe I could have it. I expect you will agree. But here we really do get onto sticky ground. We can want things but not even be aware of the fact. We can have inbuilt needs for things we need not realise exist.

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.Because knowledge isn't subjective. Nothing empirical supports the notion of "spiritual experience".


I have already agreed that there is no proof for God's existence. I am sure we both know how many years the best minds have been arguing that point to no conclusion.

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Chemically-induced hallucinations are "spiritual experiences" now?
I get in a near-orgasmic state eating burritos- maybe that's a "spiritual experience".


I wouldn't know this about drugs personally. I have read the claims, but it is well accepted.

Grebels wrote:
But the burden of proof is on you to say why drugs do not give a genuine spiritual experience.

ROFL.
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The burden of proof is never on the skeptic. :lol:

The claim is yours- the effects of drugs are well-documented, and none of the research involves magical feeling

I wonder who writes this stuff. Again I am not sure that proof is possible. Maybe ask the indians who use the stuff.

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Much less stupid than to claim "knowledge" of grandiose magical beings and then dare to say it's my burden to disprove such delusions. :lol
:

Isn't it obvious that theology has nothing to do with science. Oh, good you got my drift. But don't scientists place the burden of proof on themselves. In Rutherford's time some scientists thought it was all just about complete. There was nothing else to be answered. How nice. Now it is becoming obvious science is only at the beginning of knowledge. Wheeler and Bohm tried to give answers, but they may be accused of having another agenda. They were both, I have read, Bhuddhists. So all the time we have scientists convinced they have found a theory to explain things, but it is later proved to be full of holes. Even scientists agree that the concept of a theory has limits. I think Bohm with the Implicate Order has come closer to explaining things. I don't feel the need to agree with everything he said though.

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So, what do you think of Maya?

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Who's that?

You are serious? Maya is the Hindu belief that all is illusion.
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Are both Maya and Russell saying that solid thing in front of us is not there at all? Couldn't they be saying it is there, but is possibly not what you think it is
I think they're probably saying that if you want to make claims, you shouldn't get plucky when asked for evidence. That's my interpretation.


Philosophy was never my subject and I might well and truly lose my way discussing Russell.

Certain scientists are being very definite. Whilst they claim God does not exist there are, however, many thing they simply cannot explain. I give them full marks for trying. Perhaps you are aware of all the constants and math involved in the Universe. Did these things all just happen. If you believe in the Big Bang, then so do many believers. But a Big Bang that just happened to fall in place with rather less chance than a million monkeys typing a Shakespeare sonnet, or dare I say than me winning the lottery?



ValentineWiggin
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01 Apr 2012, 11:19 am

So basically, you admit there is no evidence of a god, and then

confuse science's complete indifference to non-evidenced concepts with claims of non-existence:

Grebels wrote:
Certain scientists are being very definite. Whilst they claim God does not exist


make God of the Gaps arguments:
Grebels wrote:
there are, however, many thing they simply cannot explain.


and presume a first cause:
Grebels wrote:
But a Big Bang that just happened to fall in place with rather less chance than a million monkeys typing a Shakespeare sonnet, or dare I say than me winning the lottery?



I think I'm done here.


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Joker
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01 Apr 2012, 11:28 am

It seems both sides that being religious and non religious will never get along when I have nothing against those who are athestis say nothing about them being it either yet they attack me on WP almost all the time when people talk about religion.



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01 Apr 2012, 11:32 am

Letsrave wrote:
When I was a child I thought of all supernatural things as stuff we all pretended was true, for fun or to feel good. I didnt ever really think about religion in particular until my early teens. After encountering fundamentalists I realized just how serious they were about believing in god, and began to wonder why someone would embrace an irrational belief rather than admitting ignorance. This became an obsession quickly as it was the first time I had really pondered the irrelevancy of my existence. All the time I would try to believe, my mind would race as I tried to think up a rational justification for belief in god. I just wanted to be able to believe and not have to fear death. Unfortunately the only arguments I could make for the existence of god, was relabeling our ignorance with the word "god"


How serious they wanted you to believe they believed in God... though I image that as into it as they get, alot of them have eaten their own poison and now actually believe their god is a god.

People pretend to be religious, you got that right. Now you just have figure out why.... so what do you think the reason is? It's genius, don't think of it as anything less, it is a pure strategy where everyone in society can be known and read like books for those who understand the system if creates. The system is alot like santa claus... it knows if you are sleeping, it knows if you are awake, it knows if you've been bad or good, and it strips from people their privacy. Never can they express and not be known. Music and movies, though I'm still getting alot of it wrong have definite meaning and artists speak a different language all in common with a given culture.

If you're not in the know about religion, give it up, you're being used.



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01 Apr 2012, 11:34 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
So I'm supposed to magically start "wanting" something in my life for which no evidence exists?
How's that mental process work?

Interesting how this god only "reveals" herself to those who already believe.
Telling.

Nope, 'fraid "spiritual experience" isn't actually real. Absolutely nothing empirical evidences it

There's a great deal of evidence for things associated with spiritual experiences,
even the positive benefits of those things,
like meditation,
but then meditation can be done without all the "god" gookery.


Ooooh! Read my last post!



Joker
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01 Apr 2012, 11:35 am

I find it strange that people who don't believe in God talk about him so much :?:



ValentineWiggin
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01 Apr 2012, 11:38 am

Joker wrote:
I find it strange that people who don't believe in God talk about him so much :?:




OOoh got me!

I must secretly buh-lieb!


The whole of the world is ruled by the fantasies of people who do.
It's kind of relevant to our lives, dontcha think?


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01 Apr 2012, 11:42 am

Grebels wrote:
I have already agreed that there is no proof for God's existence. I am sure we both know how many years the best minds have been arguing that point to no conclusion.


And she is likely proud that there is no proof. It means religion is doing it's job.



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01 Apr 2012, 11:42 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
I find it strange that people who don't believe in God talk about him so much :?:




OOoh got me!

I must secretly buh-lieb!


The whole of the world is ruled by the fantasies of people who do.
It's kind of relevant to our lives, dontcha think?


Not really if people have a certin faith and they follow it why would it concern people so much their are just as many atheists willing to kill religious people as their are religious people killing in the name of religion I try to have a civil debate about it but I always get attacked.

Religion is a personal part of my life I don't use it as a crutch either but it seems to me that all non believers think that all religious people are evil and bad dontcha think?



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01 Apr 2012, 11:47 am

Joker wrote:
I find it strange that people who don't believe in God talk about him so much :?:


Yeah, I can't sit idly by while people are exposed to an existential nightmare living lives like they will live again forever when they will in fact just rot in the ground or go up in smoke. To be religious and not understand the religion you are practicing or to practice it in ignorance of what it really is too sad to allow. I must set the captives free, cuz Jesus is putting people through hell :wink:



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01 Apr 2012, 11:48 am

Joker wrote:
their are just as many atheists willing to kill religious people as their are religious people killing in the name of religion



:lmao: Tell us another one!


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Joker
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01 Apr 2012, 11:49 am

I know my faith it's history everything about it.



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01 Apr 2012, 11:51 am

Joker wrote:
I know my faith it's history everything about it.


Absolute statement alert!!


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Velociraptor
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01 Apr 2012, 11:55 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Joker wrote:
their are just as many atheists willing to kill religious people as their are religious people killing in the name of religion



:lmao: Tell us another one!


The atheists that are willing to kill the religious are almost always the ones who are forced and continually deceived into fairy tail beliefs who suddenly realize that they've been lied to on an epic scale. They don't live very long as atheists as a result of killing themselves next or in the process of killing others. So yeah, there are truely few atheists alive that do this, and those that do are usually a religious community's fault. Religion should be outlawed in such any community experiencing this IMO.



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01 Apr 2012, 11:58 am

Alexender wrote:
Joker wrote:
I know my faith it's history everything about it.


Absolute statement alert!!


We'd better run before he shoots someone or his religious community fairy tales someone else into doing it!