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ArrantPariah
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03 May 2012, 7:15 am

We were just one vote away from including a government health insurance option in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Just one vote. All that would have been needed was one repug senator to show a little decency and vote for it. But, decency is not what the repugs are about at all.



Jacoby
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03 May 2012, 7:39 am

The real problem with healthcare is the cost, Obamacare did absolutely nothing to address this and will actually make the costs go even higher. It's a bad deal for the vast majority of Americans besides those working in the health insurance industry.



ruveyn
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03 May 2012, 6:08 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
We were just one vote away from including a government health insurance option in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Just one vote. All that would have been needed was one repug senator to show a little decency and vote for it. But, decency is not what the repugs are about at all.


Do you want Congress ordering private citizens on what to buy?

Suppose Congress makes you buy green beans. The next thing they will do is force you to eat them.

ruveyn



ArrantPariah
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03 May 2012, 6:54 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The real problem with healthcare is the cost, Obamacare did absolutely nothing to address this and will actually make the costs go even higher. It's a bad deal for the vast majority of Americans besides those working in the health insurance industry.


That's exactly what they want you to think.



SpiritBlooms
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03 May 2012, 7:58 pm

If Republicans ever vote in a public service that benefits me, a liberal, you can be sure I will take advantage of it if I fit the requirements and need or want whatever it is. But I'm not holding my breath that they'll ever do that.

They don't want everyone taken care of. We're all supposed to buck up, you know, and manage to take care of ourselves, even though a capitalist economy guarantees that some will fail or fall through the cracks. But so what, we're all supposed to be slaves to the system, so shut up and deal with it. Right? Because capitalism will make each of us a millionaire one day - so don't you dare vote to tax the rich either!

So how dare you suggest that this "socialist" system is good even if this Republican takes advantage of it.

:wink:

I hate that it's called Obama care because it's not what he proposed, it's a vile compromise to both conservative and corporate interests, and it's not what I wanted as a liberal. I wanted HR 676 - universal single payer. I think every American would benefit from that, and it wouldn't line corporate pockets while leaving me unable to afford my necessary dental work in spite of having insurance.



auntblabby
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04 May 2012, 4:46 am

all the righties seem to be saying to the rest of us, is just an atavistic refrain based upon "i don't care if y'all live or die, just get rich [or die trying] or get out of my @#$%&+?=! sight!"



CoMF
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04 May 2012, 7:37 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
That's exactly what they want you to think.


So then please elaborate on why that's not actually the case, preferrably citing unbiased references if at all possible.



ArrantPariah
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04 May 2012, 7:54 am

CoMF wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
That's exactly what they want you to think.


So then please elaborate on why that's not actually the case, preferrably citing unbiased references if at all possible.


The burden of proof lies with the original statement

Quote:
The real problem with healthcare is the cost, Obamacare did absolutely nothing to address this and will actually make the costs go even higher. It's a bad deal for the vast majority of Americans besides those working in the health insurance industry.


That's just standard Repug rhetoric, that Karl Rove pulled out of his arse, and that gets repeated incessantly on Fox Noise, and that is not based upon any legitimate analysis, and that is only intended to strike fear into hearts of the semi-literate masses.



CoMF
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04 May 2012, 8:15 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
The burden of proof lies with the original statement


I'm not shifting the burden of proof to you. I'm asking you to explain how the Affordable Care Act has actually reduced health care expenses for everyone. I'm more interested in finding the truth than scoring points for team conservative.



ArrantPariah
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04 May 2012, 10:07 am

CoMF wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
The burden of proof lies with the original statement


I'm not shifting the burden of proof to you. I'm asking you to explain how the Affordable Care Act has actually reduced health care expenses for everyone. I'm more interested in finding the truth than scoring points for team conservative.


http://www.democrats.org/issues/health_care

Quote:
In March 2010, President Obama fulfilled a promise that Democrats have pursued for nearly a century: making health care available to all Americans. Despite unanimous opposition from Republicans, Democrats were finally able to pass comprehensive health reform into law.

By 2014, health reform will eliminate all discrimination for pre-existing conditions, start the process of expanding health insurance coverage for an additional 32 million Americans, and provide the largest middle-class tax cut for health care in history.

The Affordable Care Act has already begun to end the worst insurance company abuses. Since 2010, children with pre-existing conditions can no longer be denied insurance.

The Affordable Care Act also provides tax cuts to small business to help offset the costs of employee coverage, and tax credits to help families pay for insurance. Health reform will also lower costs for families and for businesses and for the federal government, reducing our deficit by more than $1 trillion in the next two decades alone.

And health reform strengthens Medicare by reducing fraud, improving quality of care, and closing the Medicare “donut hole” gap in seniors’ prescription drug coverage.

Like Medicare before it, the Affordable Care Act lays a new foundation for our country that will bring additional security and stability to the American people for generations to come.


It is a good deal, even for people who are not employed in the health care industry.



SpiritBlooms
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04 May 2012, 10:48 am

Jacoby wrote:
The real problem with healthcare is the cost, Obamacare did absolutely nothing to address this and will actually make the costs go even higher. It's a bad deal for the vast majority of Americans besides those working in the health insurance industry.


I agree with this. Again I don't intend to vote Republican (EVER) because of it, but the Democrats caved to corporate interests. They should have gone for universal single payer and shut out the evil avaricious insurance companies and brought the medical/pharma sytsem under control.

The cost of care is indeed the problem, and no matter what insurance you have, if the cost keeps skyrocketing, we're all in trouble. I have insurance, but right now I can't afford my dental care without going into debt, so I'm prioritizing - which tooth first? Even my dentist can't tell for sure which one, we're both just guessing. (I have no new cavities, most of the work I need was caused by metallic fillings I got as a kid that have fractured my teeth.) I'm still wearing the eyeglasses I got nine years ago, and if either of us gets really sick, I fear we'll lose our house.

I also don't think buying health insurance should ever be compulsory. If there's a public option or across the board universal coverage, great, but no one should be forced to pay for a commercial, profit-making service they very well might never choose to use.



Last edited by SpiritBlooms on 04 May 2012, 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ArrantPariah
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04 May 2012, 11:17 am

ruveyn wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
We were just one vote away from including a government health insurance option in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Just one vote. All that would have been needed was one repug senator to show a little decency and vote for it. But, decency is not what the repugs are about at all.


Do you want Congress ordering private citizens on what to buy?

Suppose Congress makes you buy green beans. The next thing they will do is force you to eat them.

ruveyn


That is a rather silly analogy. There is no market failure for green beens. People who have money for food can generally afford green beens. There are plenty of other vegetables that are reasonable substitutes for green beens. If the price goes up, people can buy spinach. If a lot of people decide that they don't like green beans, then the market price will go down.

The idea of health insurance is to spread risk among a very large group of people. People who are healthy subsidize people who are not (or who fall ill). If health insurance is not mandatory, then people who are of low risk might be inclined to say: "Well, I'm healthy. I don't smoke, I exercise, I eat right, and don't have any unhealthy habits. I'm very unlikely to get sick in the near future. If I do, then I'll accept dying in the gutter as a consequence. It is very unlikely, so I'll take my chances." Which will force up prices for everyone else. As prices go up, another round of people may make the same decision, which forces prices even higher.

Requiring everyone to have health insurance (either through private insurers or through a government provider) helps reduce prices for everyone. It is very different from the situation with green beans.



ruveyn
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04 May 2012, 11:47 am

ArrantPariah wrote:

The idea of health insurance is to spread risk among a very large group of people. People who are healthy subsidize people who are not (or who fall ill). If health insurance is not mandatory, then people who are of low risk might be inclined to say: "Well, I'm healthy. I don't smoke, I exercise, I eat right, and don't have any unhealthy habits. I'm very unlikely to get sick in the near future. If I do, then I'll accept dying in the gutter as a consequence. It is very unlikely, so I'll take my chances." Which will force up prices for everyone else. As prices go up, another round of people may make the same decision, which forces prices even higher.

Requiring everyone to have health insurance (either through private insurers or through a government provider) helps reduce prices for everyone. It is very different from the situation with green beans.


You are making a case for compulsion and force. The forced transfer of assets. Let those who are not insured suffer the consequences of their stupidity. You want to take from some and give to others at government gun point. If a private person did that he would be a thief. When the government does it, what do you call it? Compassion?

What is your opinion of the military draft. Compelling service reduces the risk to all. Is that a good excuse for slavery?

ruveyn



CoMF
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04 May 2012, 12:35 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
http://www.democrats.org/issues/health_care


*Sigh* Really, Panda? Some rhetoric from the Democrat party's official website is the best supporting evidence you can come up with?

Quote:
In March 2010, President Obama fulfilled a promise that Democrats have pursued for nearly a century: making health care available to all Americans.


Bringing access to proper healthcare within the reach of those who can't afford it and requiring everyone regardless of employment or income to purchase insurance are two entirely seperate issues.

Quote:
By 2014, health reform will eliminate all discrimination for pre-existing conditions, start the process of expanding health insurance coverage for an additional 32 million Americans, and provide the largest middle-class tax cut for health care in history.


...except that HIPAA already allowed for exemptions to pre-existing condition clauses. How do I know? When I was a Union shop steward, I enrolled new bargaining unit members in our employer provided health care plan and submitted certificates of previous coverage in addition to any supporting evidence of ongoing care to the insurance company as needed for those who would have been denied coverage under the pre existing condition clause.

Also, a little over 10% of the entire American population hardly constitutes "all Americans."

Quote:
The Affordable Care Act has already begun to end the worst insurance company abuses.


Like what?

Quote:
Since 2010, children with pre-existing conditions can no longer be denied insurance.


See my statements above regarding HIPAA. It made no distinctions between family members covered under a group health plan.

Quote:
The Affordable Care Act also provides tax cuts to small business to help offset the costs of employee coverage,


Funny. This hasn't stopped employers from raising the out of pocket deductibles on group health plans, which is a very real ongoing problem. (Link)

Quote:
and tax credits to help families pay for insurance.


Really? Just out of curiosity, how much do these tax credits cover zero deductible plans, which are the only way some families can ever hope to afford proper medical care and prescription drugs? It's a catch 22: You can settle for a group or private health plan with a high deductible, or an expensive zero deductible plan that may not entirely be covered by tax credits. Either way, you still can't afford health care.

Quote:
Health reform will also lower costs for families and for businesses and for the federal government, reducing our deficit by more than $1 trillion in the next two decades alone.


Really? How? I'm interested in knowing how it's lowering operating costs for hospitals and manufacturing costs for manufacturers of drugs and medical equipment, which all result in reduced out of pocket costs for consumers.

That "one trillion" figure is also complete poppycock. (Link)

I won't address Medicare (because it's an area I'm not terribly experienced with) or the absurdity of the final statement.

ArrantPariah wrote:
It is a good deal, even for people who are not employed in the health care industry.


Yeah, it's a "good deal" for the health insurance industry and their shareholders...

Reason for Editing: Swapped the FactCheck.org link out for a more pertinent article from the same source that discusses the bogus "one trillion dollars" claim in more detail.



Last edited by CoMF on 04 May 2012, 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

abacacus
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04 May 2012, 12:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:

You are making a case for compulsion and force. The forced transfer of assets. Let those who are not insured suffer the consequences of their stupidity. You want to take from some and give to others at government gun point. If a private person did that he would be a thief. When the government does it, what do you call it? Compassion?

What is your opinion of the military draft. Compelling service reduces the risk to all. Is that a good excuse for slavery?

ruveyn


Actually it's more akin to an investors group. Instead of one person risking everything, a group of people band together to reduce risk. AKA, something that makes logical sense. Also, it's been shown that socialised healthcare is actually CHEAPER for people, the American system is one of the most expensive in the world :lol:


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