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Best Argument Against Biblical Fundamentalism

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Rocky
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07 Jul 2012, 1:22 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Rocky wrote:
Joker wrote:
Rocky wrote:
From the "Atheist Experience" TV show. Even just the first video is enough.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiw-ogmzeIM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpkJT1p59To[/youtube]

Matt Dillahunty was a Christian for more than 20 years. He was studying to enter the Clergy. His studies led him to this conclusion. I think he is the most eloquent spokesman available to fill the shoes of Christopher Hitchens. What do you think?


He was never a christian to being with if you say your a christian and stop being one you never was religious or a christian.


This is what is known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Wiki link follows: Wikipedia Article

This isn't the fallacy, though. The fallacy has to do with shifting unpleasant definitions. The question is whether there really is a definition of a true Scotsman.

What makes a Christian a Christian is an enduring faith. Without that, one isn't a Christian. If it is possible for someone to renounce their faith, then they never had the kind of faith necessary to correctly identify as a believer. Just because you "claim" to be a Christian doesn't make you one.


Exactly. You find my definition of "a Christian" to be unpleasant. Therefore, you substitute your own.

Faith, to my way of thinking, is what everyone is born with. Faith is just the ability to believe without evidence. Some people later develop critical thinking skills, and the ability to overcome indoctrination. Most people do not.


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Last edited by Rocky on 07 Jul 2012, 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
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07 Jul 2012, 1:28 pm

Rocky wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Rocky wrote:
Joker wrote:
Rocky wrote:
From the "Atheist Experience" TV show. Even just the first video is enough.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiw-ogmzeIM[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpkJT1p59To[/youtube]

Matt Dillahunty was a Christian for more than 20 years. He was studying to enter the Clergy. His studies led him to this conclusion. I think he is the most eloquent spokesman available to fill the shoes of Christopher Hitchens. What do you think?


He was never a christian to being with if you say your a christian and stop being one you never was religious or a christian.


This is what is known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Wiki link follows: Wikipedia Article

This isn't the fallacy, though. The fallacy has to do with shifting unpleasant definitions. The question is whether there really is a definition of a true Scotsman.

What makes a Christian a Christian is an enduring faith. Without that, one isn't a Christian. If it is possible for someone to renounce their faith, then they never had the kind of faith necessary to correctly identify as a believer. Just because you "claim" to be a Christian doesn't make you one.


Exactly. You find my definition of "a Christian" to be unpleasant. Therefore, you substitute your own.

Faith, to my way of thinking, is what everyone is born with. Some people later develop critical thinking skills, and the ability to overcome indoctrination. Most people do not.


You also have to consider that some people like faith and religion.



abacacus
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07 Jul 2012, 1:59 pm

Joker wrote:
When you have very strong faith in a religion and it's teachings their is no need to do those thing's. Because with Faith you can do everything Faith doesn't hold you back. We relie on God's understanding of the World and not of are own understanding. We depend on God an only God' it's how we Theists see thing's. Jesus is a shepard when the sheep leave the flow their mislead. But the bible teaches us that we all have time of dought. I do as well but that does not mean I don't have faith. It is human nature to dought even if you strongly believe something. I am sure some atheists dought their belifes just as theists do.


...what?

Please tell me you aren't serious man. "There is no need" for things like questioning, critical thinking, logic?

You are a PERFECT example of why Christianity is a terrible thing. You are so blinded by your little book you outright say you have no need to look for the truth because your faith is strong. Newsflash, your faith means nothing if a natural disaster strikes, but logical thinking could save your life. Your faith means nothing if you fall seriously ill, but the medicines developed through scientific testing might save your life.

Open your eyes. See reality for what it is, not what you want it to be.


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07 Jul 2012, 2:05 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
When you have very strong faith in a religion and it's teachings their is no need to do those thing's. Because with Faith you can do everything Faith doesn't hold you back. We relie on God's understanding of the World and not of are own understanding. We depend on God an only God' it's how we Theists see thing's. Jesus is a shepard when the sheep leave the flow their mislead. But the bible teaches us that we all have time of dought. I do as well but that does not mean I don't have faith. It is human nature to dought even if you strongly believe something. I am sure some atheists dought their belifes just as theists do.


...what?

Please tell me you aren't serious man. "There is no need" for things like questioning, critical thinking, logic?

You are a PERFECT example of why Christianity is a terrible thing. You are so blinded by your little book you outright say you have no need to look for the truth because your faith is strong. Newsflash, your faith means nothing if a natural disaster strikes, but logical thinking could save your life. Your faith means nothing if you fall seriously ill, but the medicines developed through scientific testing might save your life.

Open your eyes. See reality for what it is, not what you want it to be.


This is why I don't talk about religion with you because you don't respect other peoples opinons. My Faith means everything God knows everything that will happen when I get sick ect. That is what my religion and faith teaches.



abacacus
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07 Jul 2012, 2:16 pm

Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
When you have very strong faith in a religion and it's teachings their is no need to do those thing's. Because with Faith you can do everything Faith doesn't hold you back. We relie on God's understanding of the World and not of are own understanding. We depend on God an only God' it's how we Theists see thing's. Jesus is a shepard when the sheep leave the flow their mislead. But the bible teaches us that we all have time of dought. I do as well but that does not mean I don't have faith. It is human nature to dought even if you strongly believe something. I am sure some atheists dought their belifes just as theists do.


...what?

Please tell me you aren't serious man. "There is no need" for things like questioning, critical thinking, logic?

You are a PERFECT example of why Christianity is a terrible thing. You are so blinded by your little book you outright say you have no need to look for the truth because your faith is strong. Newsflash, your faith means nothing if a natural disaster strikes, but logical thinking could save your life. Your faith means nothing if you fall seriously ill, but the medicines developed through scientific testing might save your life.

Open your eyes. See reality for what it is, not what you want it to be.


This is why I don't talk about religion with you because you don't respect other peoples opinons. My Faith means everything God knows everything that will happen when I get sick ect. That is what my religion and faith teaches.


I do respect your opinion. I respect it enough to argue against it, which shows I hold it in high enough esteem to care about it.

If you would like me to show more respect for your opinion, put forth some argument that actually make sense and don't rely on faith. Relying on faith puts your opinion on equal standing with some insane dude on the street ranting about how our reptile overlords are going to brainwash us all any day now.


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JanuaryMan
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07 Jul 2012, 2:20 pm

If we did not have critical thinking, challenge ideas, or test things due to lack of faith we as a species would not have come as far as we have.
Regardless of whether you have faith or not, all the worst atrocities are committed by mankind either side of the religious fence.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:21 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
When you have very strong faith in a religion and it's teachings their is no need to do those thing's. Because with Faith you can do everything Faith doesn't hold you back. We relie on God's understanding of the World and not of are own understanding. We depend on God an only God' it's how we Theists see thing's. Jesus is a shepard when the sheep leave the flow their mislead. But the bible teaches us that we all have time of dought. I do as well but that does not mean I don't have faith. It is human nature to dought even if you strongly believe something. I am sure some atheists dought their belifes just as theists do.


...what?

Please tell me you aren't serious man. "There is no need" for things like questioning, critical thinking, logic?

You are a PERFECT example of why Christianity is a terrible thing. You are so blinded by your little book you outright say you have no need to look for the truth because your faith is strong. Newsflash, your faith means nothing if a natural disaster strikes, but logical thinking could save your life. Your faith means nothing if you fall seriously ill, but the medicines developed through scientific testing might save your life.

Open your eyes. See reality for what it is, not what you want it to be.


This is why I don't talk about religion with you because you don't respect other peoples opinons. My Faith means everything God knows everything that will happen when I get sick ect. That is what my religion and faith teaches.


I do respect your opinion. I respect it enough to argue against it, which shows I hold it in high enough esteem to care about it.

If you would like me to show more respect for your opinion, put forth some argument that actually make sense and don't rely on faith. Relying on faith puts your opinion on equal standing with some insane dude on the street ranting about how our reptile overlords are going to brainwash us all any day now.


Faith it is a teaching that Jesus of Nazareth taugh to his disciples in the New Testemant. It means nothing that you so rudely attack my belief and opinon.



abacacus
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07 Jul 2012, 2:28 pm

Joker wrote:

Faith it is a teaching that Jesus of Nazareth taugh to his disciples in the New Testemant. It means nothing that you so rudely attack my belief and opinon.


The Zombie Survival Guide teaches me that the governments of the world are covering up zombie attacks around the globe.

I can believe that all I want, but my faith don't make it so. If I was seriously claiming that the world needed to prepare because of those cover-ups, I'd be mocked and laughed at wherever I went.

So why should the bible be any different?


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07 Jul 2012, 2:29 pm

JanuaryMan wrote:
If we did not have critical thinking, challenge ideas, or test things due to lack of faith we as a species would not have come as far as we have.
Regardless of whether you have faith or not, all the worst atrocities are committed by mankind either side of the religious fence.


Secluar atheist communist have done just as much harm in the name of their political ideas.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:30 pm

Joker wrote:
JanuaryMan wrote:
If we did not have critical thinking, challenge ideas, or test things due to lack of faith we as a species would not have come as far as we have.
Regardless of whether you have faith or not, all the worst atrocities are committed by mankind either side of the religious fence.


Secluar atheist communist have done just as much harm in the name of their political ideas.


I don't know why you felt the need to point that out when I already stated both religious and non religious people are equally as bad as each other.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:30 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:

Faith it is a teaching that Jesus of Nazareth taugh to his disciples in the New Testemant. It means nothing that you so rudely attack my belief and opinon.


The Zombie Survival Guide teaches me that the governments of the world are covering up zombie attacks around the globe.

I can believe that all I want, but my faith don't make it so. If I was seriously claiming that the world needed to prepare because of those cover-ups, I'd be mocked and laughed at wherever I went.

So why should the bible be any different?


It's diffrent because the Zombie Survival Guide is just that a survival guide. While the Bible is a religious book of religious teachings and practices.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:32 pm

JanuaryMan wrote:
Joker wrote:
JanuaryMan wrote:
If we did not have critical thinking, challenge ideas, or test things due to lack of faith we as a species would not have come as far as we have.
Regardless of whether you have faith or not, all the worst atrocities are committed by mankind either side of the religious fence.


Secluar atheist communist have done just as much harm in the name of their political ideas.


I don't know why you felt the need to point that out when I already stated both religious and non religious people are equally as bad as each other.


I do apologize I misread what you posted sorry.


Plus abacacus is always going to attack me for my religoius beliefs. At least the other atheists don't that on WP Rocky never has nor has Odain or Naturalplastic.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm

Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:

Faith it is a teaching that Jesus of Nazareth taugh to his disciples in the New Testemant. It means nothing that you so rudely attack my belief and opinon.


The Zombie Survival Guide teaches me that the governments of the world are covering up zombie attacks around the globe.

I can believe that all I want, but my faith don't make it so. If I was seriously claiming that the world needed to prepare because of those cover-ups, I'd be mocked and laughed at wherever I went.

So why should the bible be any different?


It's diffrent because the Zombie Survival Guide is just that a survival guide. While the Bible is a religious book of religious teachings and practices.


...which means exactly what? The bible is still just a book.

But, if that's the way you wanna play it...

What makes the bible any more valid than the THOUSANDS of other religions?


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Joker
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07 Jul 2012, 2:46 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:

Faith it is a teaching that Jesus of Nazareth taugh to his disciples in the New Testemant. It means nothing that you so rudely attack my belief and opinon.


The Zombie Survival Guide teaches me that the governments of the world are covering up zombie attacks around the globe.

I can believe that all I want, but my faith don't make it so. If I was seriously claiming that the world needed to prepare because of those cover-ups, I'd be mocked and laughed at wherever I went.

So why should the bible be any different?


It's diffrent because the Zombie Survival Guide is just that a survival guide. While the Bible is a religious book of religious teachings and practices.


...which means exactly what? The bible is still just a book.

But, if that's the way you wanna play it...

What makes the bible any more valid than the THOUSANDS of other religions?


Never said the bible was more valdid then Thousands of other religions. The Bible is Valid to me because I am a Christian' just like how the Torah is Vlaid the Jewish people how the Quran is Valid to Muslims. Like how the Vedas is Valid to Hindus the point being a religious book and the religious texts of their holy books is only Valid to the practitioner of that religion.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:47 pm

AngelRho wrote:
What makes a Christian a Christian is an enduring faith. Without that, one isn't a Christian. If it is possible for someone to renounce their faith, then they never had the kind of faith necessary to correctly identify as a believer. Just because you "claim" to be a Christian doesn't make you one.

Here's the issue though:
If what makes a Christian a Christian is an enduring faith, and an enduring faith is only known through keeping this faith until they die, then nobody can be identified as a Christian while still alive, as we can't say "They have an enduring faith" if they don't endure. This is pretty unacceptable to believers and unbelievers though.

So, the problem then becomes that if we have a person leave, but if we can't predict that they'd leave from the pre-existing data, but everything else shows they are "Christian", then..... the response "enduring faith" just doesn't seem true. If I am a Christian, then there must something about me at the present that makes me a Christian. If there is no ability to identify anything enduring(or not enduring) in advance, then the answer "enduring faith" really does seem to fall into the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and whether the Bible puts it out or not would be irrelevant. I can't be Christian or non-Christian based upon an event that hasn't happened yet.



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07 Jul 2012, 2:51 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
What makes a Christian a Christian is an enduring faith. Without that, one isn't a Christian. If it is possible for someone to renounce their faith, then they never had the kind of faith necessary to correctly identify as a believer. Just because you "claim" to be a Christian doesn't make you one.

Here's the issue though:
If what makes a Christian a Christian is an enduring faith, and an enduring faith is only known through keeping this faith until they die, then nobody can be identified as a Christian while still alive, as we can't say "They have an enduring faith" if they don't endure. This is pretty unacceptable to believers and unbelievers though.

So, the problem then becomes that if we have a person leave, but if we can't predict that they'd leave from the pre-existing data, but everything else shows they are "Christian", then..... the response "enduring faith" just doesn't seem true. If I am a Christian, then there must something about me at the present that makes me a Christian. If there is no ability to identify anything enduring(or not enduring) in advance, then the answer "enduring faith" really does seem to fall into the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, and whether the Bible puts it out or not would be irrelevant. I can't be Christian or non-Christian based upon an event that hasn't happened yet.


Most christians see a christian as some one who follow the religious laws of the old testemeant and the teachings of Jesus but it varies depending on the church doctrine in some cases.

Other then that I agree with you good post :wink: