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Does Democracy Really Work Since Only the Rich and Powerful are Satisfied?
Yes 12%  12%  [ 18 ]
Yes 12%  12%  [ 18 ]
No 21%  21%  [ 31 ]
No 21%  21%  [ 31 ]
I Am President Bush and You Have Violated the Patriot Act 17%  17%  [ 25 ]
I Am President Bush and You Have Violated the Patriot Act 17%  17%  [ 25 ]
Total votes : 148

axelkat
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06 Mar 2005, 10:43 am

nayashi wrote:
I am a proud Communist, and that makes me friggin' cool.

And I have read The Giver. I read it in the seventh grade, and I loved it. I wouldn't have wanted to live quite like that, though, but they way people worked was amazing.

I believe that people should what they want for what they want, not because of money. I think money is a horrible and awful concept and should be eliminated. Can you imagine the amount of peace we would have without money?


Go to North Korea already. Kim Jong Il will make you nice and comfortable without freedom of speech.
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Feste-Fenris
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06 Mar 2005, 1:34 pm

I have some socialist leanings... I'll admit...

But I am VERY glad that the Soviet Union died...

Now that communism is gone the only threats to democracy are environmental degradation (tricky) and terrorists (too stupid to be anything except terrorists)...

Communism has technically killed more people than fascism... like small business owners, intellectuals, farmers... anybody who didn't fit the bill was killed...

When you think about it communism has more in common with fascism than anybody would like... both consider the killing of entire social classes as a necessity for progress...

I'm saying unpopular things but it needs to be said... communism like the Soviet Union represents everything Martin Luther King and Gandhi fought against...



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06 Mar 2005, 3:03 pm

tallgirl wrote:
Actually socialism is what you are thinking of. Communism does not care about the individual, only the collective good. Communism is economic, socialism is concerned with individual rights as manifested by a collective consciousness.

For example, in communism, if Aspies were thought to threaten the common good, they would either institutionalize us or kill us. Not Marx's communism, but they way it has been misinterpreted by every country who considers itself communist.

Communism suppresses artistic creativity and self-expression by it's nature. That's why in a capitalist economy (like the US) we have things like Hollywood and our gigantic music/entertainment industry. I am not saying other countries don't (I love me a good Bollywood flick), but it is the reason that fortunately or unfortunately (however one views it), US entertainment invades the world.

Many people confuse communism with socialism.

Tallgirl.

You are right when i started this thread i meant socialism


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06 Mar 2005, 3:34 pm

That reminds me of an episode of South Park. A local coffee shop owner feared takeover by a nationwide corporation who was trying to open in South Park. All the townspeople rallied in support of this coffee shop owner and boycotted the nationwide chain. By the end, however, they realized that this was folly. The local coffee shop's coffee tasted like crap, and the nationwide chain provided better tasting and more kinds of coffee. Either Stan or Kyle (don't remember which) said, The nationwide corporation got to its position today by being better than everyone else.

People like depicting large corporations as big, money grubbing, and evil things, but is that accurate? Maybe they're like that because they provide products that people find useful?

Minusmanus wrote:
tallgirl:
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What the US does not guarantee is a handout for one to move up. All our Constitution guarantees is that if you work your a** off and are willing to put in the effort, you will at least get the opportunity to succeed, which is more than most countries will ever offer their citizens.


In some ways, you are right. However, I would like to say that the US is less "free" now than it used to be. Chances are that if you are on your way to having successful business some huge company will either try to buy your company, or just shut it down by opening a business close to you. They might have a brand-name which "everybody" knows, and they (or at least their central office) can probably also advertise on TV. They might also control the supply of raw materials, and while it may be illegal for them to not sell to competitors, it is likely that a huge company might get more favourable prices.

My point is that in many areas of business, many things are being owned by large companies that have lots of power. So while one is theoretically free to start a company, the work one puts in might not be worth it, as the company may only be afloat at the mercy of one's competitors. It's quite authoritarian, I think.

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I think American people would be shocked if they knew just how much we are censored. In fact, the guy who won "Best New Director" or something like that from the Independent Spirit Awards, had his movie confiscated by Homeland Security and it is still being "investigated" by the FBI, b/c he filmed from moving trains.


Yes, it is quite scary. However, there's another form of censorship going on as well. I don't buy the argument that indie-films are too "bad" to be shown at major cinemas. There are actually quite a few good "indie"-films, that many would enjoy if they had the possibility to see them.
It is probable that the company that owns the cinema or the rental-store, might be owned by the same company that owns one of the movie-producing companies in Hollywood.
And of course, the cinema will make more money showing a movie from Hollywood, rather than a Indie-movie. It's sad, really.



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06 Mar 2005, 5:01 pm

Capitalism works simply because people buy the products...

In the Soviet Union the food was terrible... everything people built was ugly and poorly designed and the cars were made out of vinyl (I wish that was a joke)...

Capitalism dominates the world merely because it's what the world wants... that's why there are no communist leaders left in Europe... and why in North America politics is a concordant opposition between liberals and conservatives...

I admit that our current capitalist system has flaws (some people are very rich, others are very poor; the environment is degrading) but all in all things are pretty good...

How could the Internet function without capitalism?

Anti-Capitalism is very popular as long as you don't starve...



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06 Mar 2005, 5:26 pm

This wealth difference stuff is so overblown. Poor people in America today live far better than the richest people in America a hundred years ago lived. There are people who jump far ahead in wealth, but that is mostly because they are providing goods and services that lots of people want. When people use force to try to close this gap, they tend to make both groups poorer, all in pursuit of an abstract, impossible ideal of equality.

Feste-Fenris wrote:
Capitalism works simply because people buy the products...

In the Soviet Union the food was terrible... everything people built was ugly and poorly designed and the cars were made out of vinyl (I wish that was a joke)...

Capitalism dominates the world merely because it's what the world wants... that's why there are no communist leaders left in Europe... and why in North America politics is a concordant opposition between liberals and conservatives...

I admit that our current capitalist system has flaws (some people are very rich, others are very poor; the environment is degrading) but all in all things are pretty good...

How could the Internet function without capitalism?

Anti-Capitalism is very popular as long as you don't starve...



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06 Mar 2005, 8:05 pm

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06 Mar 2005, 8:12 pm

Allow me to precis this whole discussion: Communism is the best political system in theory, Capitalism is the best political system in practice. Debate, end of.

Ai thangyew....


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06 Mar 2005, 8:26 pm

"I am mediocre, therefore I exist."

That doesn't follow.

AntiEverything wrote:
I'm not entirely in favour of anything. No matter which level I look at humanity I feel contempt for it. I suffer from in-growing fingernails, itchy red blotches when I exercise, and feel alternating feelings of numbness and spasmic quakes in my legs. On the somatic level, therefore, it's hopeless.

Then on the psycho front: My mind can't remember everything it wants to, people's minds are all different. Then on the sociectal front: People are hypocrites or openly bestial. In the end, no matter how I look at it everything mankind does is a mistake, and I think I rather tend to agree with Freud that subconscious desires that are not cultured in the least motivate us to do anything.

So as a nihilist I don't care about the best system or the worst system. We all die eventually. What I hope for is that we become extinct and are
succeeded by something inconceivable to a primate. I want what succeeds us to be a more happier being, a more honest being, a - oh, I don't know, I'm too stupid to explain it. I'm sure this is because of my own personal experience of unpleasantness at the hands of the human race, but I can't subjugate myself. I am mediocre, therefore I exist.



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06 Mar 2005, 8:26 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
Allow me to precis this whole discussion: Communism is the best political system in theory, Capitalism is the best political system in practice. Debate, end of.

Ai thangyew....


How do you define best political system?



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06 Mar 2005, 8:49 pm

cornince wrote:
TAFKASH wrote:
Allow me to precis this whole discussion: Communism is the best political system in theory, Capitalism is the best political system in practice. Debate, end of.

Ai thangyew....


How do you define best political system?


How's about: "The system that most effectively provides the most equitable treatment and potential for advancement for the majority of the society said system is applied to". Hmmmm... not a terribly elegant definition maybe, but it'll do for 01:48 Sunday night I suppose...... Basically, fewer people get stiffed, and more people have the possibility of "getting ahead" in capitalism than any other system yet devised.


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06 Mar 2005, 11:03 pm

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cornince
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07 Mar 2005, 1:00 am

I think you need to step back and take another look at things, because you've gone off the deep end. You're advocating a continuous, methodical slaugther of large numbers of people and you have the audacity to call such a process natural? You're like that Ikkyu guy on the anime OAV Read or Die, who wanted to wipe out the entire world except for himself and a few of his cronies so he could build a supposedly more just order.

Tell me, in your glossing over of this brilliant setup, did you see some parts you forgot to add in? Like that part about eliminating privilege? Yeah, privilege for none except the ruling elite, who will still be able to build weapons of war and oppression to cleanse the human race. I'll bet you would have a sharp eye to take command of such a regime.

It is natural for humans to be innovative and to want to improve out living environment, and we have. Wanting to cause destruction is from the dark side of human nature, and unfortunately you seem to be caught up in it totally. Please, rethink.

AntiEverything wrote:
I've been thinking about this from another angle. Think about the environment. Okay, some people say the damage to the environment isn't that bad, that scientists and ecologists exaggerate or are misguided. Or some may just say these people are unrealistic, that the cost to environment is a necessary evil.

But. Just consider that a countless amount of species have already become extinct. More species are in the rainforests than anywhere else on Earth and it doesn't matter if you're replanting more trees - the natural habitats and ecosystems are being destroyed and we're reshaping the world in a way that isn't how it's meant to be.

Now, what is fundamentally wrong with the human race is that we place ourselves before nature as a whole. We sacrifice millions of species, of wildlife in favour of our own development. I know economies are built on environmentally unfriendly and Earth-damaging systems but why should we definitely believe that our own development is tantamount to the word progress?

Why shouldn't we live more frugally, eat natural fruit, struggle with the difficulty of keeping ourselves warm and making food without electricity like every other creature does? And here's the strange thing. If a human kills another human it's considered absolutely awful, if they kill many humans it's terrible, and yet it's all good and fine to produce factories and industry that pollute rivers and the sea, that damage the o-zone layer, that kill birds and fish and insects and more.

Ultimately I think the best system has to be a kind of Green Communism or Green Dictatorship if you like - a political system in which humans are restricted to living natural lives, of not using costly therapies to cure themselves, of not having privilege. We'd have to set ourselves goals such as keeping the population down, killing people in their masses (but humanely) when necessary and punishing people harshly for attempting to meddle with nature's natural way.

This may sound insane as we are after-all all modern, industrialised people. It's not easy and yet I think the only way we can save ourselves is to ultimately be harsh with ourselves. Human rights can't be held in too high a regard, at least not before Mother Earth's rights. This is all a dream, of course. But it's a different angle, and I think it's important to consider everything. The system would basically have to have scientists and ecologically-minded intellectuals running it which is why it's hard to say whether it would be a Communism or a dictatorship... in a sense it would be like a dictatorship because it is ran with an iron fist so to speak, but also like Communism because it would do things for the state (which in this case would be the whole Earth as state).

So, if a group of capitalists started WWIII by, say, making a virus that killed millions of people and allowed them to seize power of everything and thus set in place The Green World Rule, I'd be happy. But I'm not delusional. I don't know all the facts. It probably won't happen and much of the damage is irreversible - perhaps it's too late, but one dreams on regardless, such is the nature of the human spirit.

Edit: I'd like to add an afterthought. The earliest religions were polytheistic whereas all the major ones today are monotheistic. It is evident that in mankind's early days we understood the values of nature as is evident in ancient religions, and that later on religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam placed the importance of one God above everything as if one being could be at the head of all nature. Earlier on Gods represented natural elements themselves - the sun was worshipped.

Although these people were doubtlessly more savage in their ways I can't say with conviction they were lesser than we are today. Not everything is what it appears on the surface. There is value in much that is undervalued.



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07 Mar 2005, 1:01 am

Then capitalism is the best system. Communism provides oppurtunity to none but a ruling elite.

TAFKASH wrote:
cornince wrote:
TAFKASH wrote:
Allow me to precis this whole discussion: Communism is the best political system in theory, Capitalism is the best political system in practice. Debate, end of.

Ai thangyew....


How do you define best political system?


How's about: "The system that most effectively provides the most equitable treatment and potential for advancement for the majority of the society said system is applied to". Hmmmm... not a terribly elegant definition maybe, but it'll do for 01:48 Sunday night I suppose...... Basically, fewer people get stiffed, and more people have the possibility of "getting ahead" in capitalism than any other system yet devised.



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07 Mar 2005, 6:42 am

cornince wrote:
Then capitalism is the best system. Communism provides oppurtunity to none but a ruling elite.

TAFKASH wrote:
cornince wrote:
TAFKASH wrote:
Allow me to precis this whole discussion: Communism is the best political system in theory, Capitalism is the best political system in practice. Debate, end of.

Ai thangyew....


How do you define best political system?


How's about: "The system that most effectively provides the most equitable treatment and potential for advancement for the majority of the society said system is applied to". Hmmmm... not a terribly elegant definition maybe, but it'll do for 01:48 Sunday night I suppose...... Basically, fewer people get stiffed, and more people have the possibility of "getting ahead" in capitalism than any other system yet devised.


That's what I said, me old mucker - capitalism is the best system in the real world.


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Ante
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07 Mar 2005, 12:59 pm

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