Page 1 of 3 [ 42 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

SB2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,573
Location: Southern California

29 Dec 2005, 6:03 pm

discuss


_________________
i will not cease in my never ending pursuit of the truth...
@ http://duncsdrivel.biz/intensity/index.php


eamonn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,301
Location: Scotland

29 Dec 2005, 6:11 pm

We already have two abortion threads. If it were up to me i would make it ilegal if it was done by over eight weeks or so unless the child was severely disabled wereby around 16 weeks would be the cut-off point but i would make it easier to get quick counselling and an abortion if it was so wished. I would however make it ilegal if the father wished to raise the child barring exceptions like rape of the mother and or medical problems with having the baby.



Larval
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,037

29 Dec 2005, 6:15 pm

Both sides are wrong, but both sides have good arguments and are right about the rights that need to be protected - but they're both wrong because they violate one set of rights for another. A lose-lose situation no matter which side you pick.

The middle ground is not medically possible yet, alas - but I think that it is forthcoming.



SB2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,573
Location: Southern California

29 Dec 2005, 7:47 pm

Larval wrote:
Both sides are wrong, but both sides have good arguments and are right about the rights that need to be protected - but they're both wrong because they violate one set of rights for another. A lose-lose situation no matter which side you pick.

The middle ground is not medically possible yet, alas - but I think that it is forthcoming.


Good points.

But my mind is boggled to the centrists view. How could it be?


_________________
i will not cease in my never ending pursuit of the truth...
@ http://duncsdrivel.biz/intensity/index.php


SB2
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,573
Location: Southern California

29 Dec 2005, 7:53 pm

eamonn wrote:
We already have two abortion threads. If it were up to me i would make it ilegal if it was done by over eight weeks or so unless the child was severely disabled wereby around 16 weeks would be the cut-off point but i would make it easier to get quick counselling and an abortion if it was so wished. I would however make it ilegal if the father wished to raise the child barring exceptions like rape of the mother and or medical problems with having the baby.



But currently the man has no rights on this debate.

Except for the right i demonstrated when i was 22.

My girlfriend got knocked up. We were living togwether and been involved for 3 years. I begged her i pleaded, but she wasn't ready to have a child.

So i went to the clinic with her, saw her through it, and when she felt better, i left her murderous ass.

I reject abortion in my own situation. If i play the game then i must be willing to pay the price. That is called responsibility for your own actions.

I could not live with the notion that one day i could marry this girl have children and always know she murdered one of them.

Matter of fact, i still feel sorrow for the missed opportunity.


_________________
i will not cease in my never ending pursuit of the truth...
@ http://duncsdrivel.biz/intensity/index.php


TheViking
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 571
Location: From The Dark Past

29 Dec 2005, 8:00 pm

women should feel free to have an abortion


_________________
I reject all the biblical views of the truth
Dismiss it as the folklore of the times
I won't be force fed prophecies
From a book of untruths for the weakest mind
-------
I have no faith distracting me
I know why your prayers will never be answered


psych
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Nov 2005
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,488
Location: w london

29 Dec 2005, 8:27 pm

does the morning after pill count as abortion? i mean in the moral-political sense



Larval
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,037

29 Dec 2005, 9:02 pm

psych wrote:
does the morning after pill count as abortion? i mean in the moral-political sense


Politically, no definitely not.

Morally, I think there are two versions of the after morning pill (but I may have my sources screwed up so someone else feel free to correct me)...the first prevents the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus, so it comes out with the next period. That's similar to an abortion in the sense that the zygote/egg was removed before it had a chance to become a baby.

The second pill prevents sperm from fertilizing the egg in the first place, so no zygote/embryo can form. This is completely different from abortion and can not be said to be even vaguely related (if I understand correctly)...



eamonn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,301
Location: Scotland

29 Dec 2005, 9:04 pm

SB2 wrote:


But currently the man has no rights on this debate.

Except for the right i demonstrated when i was 22.

My girlfriend got knocked up. We were living togwether and been involved for 3 years. I begged her i pleaded, but she wasn't ready to have a child.

So i went to the clinic with her, saw her through it, and when she felt better, i left her murderous ass.

I reject abortion in my own situation. If i play the game then i must be willing to pay the price. That is called responsibility for your own actions.

I could not live with the notion that one day i could marry this girl have children and always know she murdered one of them.

Matter of fact, i still feel sorrow for the missed opportunity.


I dont want children and probably ever will but i dont know if i could settle down with a woman that has had an abortion either barring some exclusions. :?



toonaspie
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 44
Location: Indiana

29 Dec 2005, 10:13 pm

I say just let everyone chose their own path and make their own decisions in peace. This argument will go on for milleniums and will never be resolved. Why? Because people dont believe in true morals anymore. Even the anti-abortionists think it is moral to blow up buildings or shoot people in the name of saving fetuses. It's those types of people who make me lose my faith in good in the world even more.



toddjh
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 277
Location: Champaign, IL, USA

29 Dec 2005, 10:23 pm

The central issue in the abortion debate is whether (or when) the fetus qualifies as a person and therefore deserves legal rights.

Since there is no consensus on this issue, it's unlikely the debate will be resolved in the foreseeable future. Those who have a religious view of a soul will continue to consider the fetus as a person from the moment of a conception, while those who have a biological definition of a person based on brain development will continue to consider the fetus as non-human until after the first trimester at least.

Still others view personhood strictly as a social construct, and believe that there is no objective dividing line -- it's a person at whatever point society as a whole views it as one, whether this is before birth or even after.

Personally, I believe abortion should be legal in the first trimester. The government should not become entangled with religion, and there is no compelling non-religious justification for banning first-trimester abortions.

After that, I believe we should err on the side of caution. At the point where the fetus begins showing distinctly human-like biological development, at about four or five months, we should play it safe and consider it a person. Since most abortions take place in the first trimester already, this would hardly affect the status quo, and four months is more than sufficient time for a woman to make her decision, even if she discovered her pregnancy relatively late.

Jeremy



merll2005
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 40

29 Dec 2005, 10:44 pm

My position was most clearly stated by a proffessor at my college who teaches classes on Constitutional Law. He says abortion isn't a right becase exersizing that right denies that right to someone else. A secondary argument he gave is that by definition a constitutional right inherently applies to everyone. obvioulsy everyone can't have this right.



Larval
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,037

29 Dec 2005, 11:13 pm

I think it is better to err on the side of protecting the embryo's life personally. But I also recognize that it is next to impossible to do this as a practical matter of law...at least for now.

I'm still banking that in a few decades the issue will be moot thanks to advanced in technology and medicine (though apparently not everyone is convinced - some people I've talked to still want to kill the embryo even if it it can be safely removed from the mother AND kept alive).



toddjh
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 277
Location: Champaign, IL, USA

29 Dec 2005, 11:14 pm

merll2005 wrote:
My position was most clearly stated by a proffessor at my college who teaches classes on Constitutional Law. He says abortion isn't a right becase exersizing that right denies that right to someone else.


I don't understand. Exercising the right to an abortion denies the right to an abortion to someone else?

Or did you mean that one person having an abortion violates another person's (i.e. the fetus's) right to live? If so, that only begs the question of whether the fetus has rights to begin with.

Jeremy



toddjh
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 277
Location: Champaign, IL, USA

29 Dec 2005, 11:16 pm

Larval wrote:
I think it is better to err on the side of protecting the embryo's life personally. But I also recognize that it is next to impossible to do this as a practical matter of law...at least for now.


It's a give and take. It's tempting to say that we should always err on the side of caution, but you have to keep in mind that doing so violates a woman's Constitutional right to privacy (as established in Roe v. Wade), and there needs to be a compelling reason to justify it.

Quote:
I'm still banking that in a few decades the issue will be moot thanks to advanced in technology and medicine (though apparently not everyone is convinced - some people I've talked to still want to kill the embryo even if it it can be safely removed from the mother AND kept alive).


If the fetus isn't regarded as a person, it should be the woman's decision. Forcibly removing a fetus and keeping it alive artificially is a violation of her right to make her own medical decisions.

Jeremy



eamonn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,301
Location: Scotland

29 Dec 2005, 11:21 pm

Without trying to come across all emotional my brothers girlfriend is pregnant and the earliest picture i seen was about eight weeks and it looks like a life to me with a head, hands feet etc so i refuse to believe anyone who says they dont feel pain when they are aborted after this point.

In this day and age there are couples that would take the baby anyway so i dont see the need for abortion in most circumstances.