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OliveOilMom
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21 Sep 2012, 11:49 am

Here is something else I'm wondering about those who are ok with leather but not fur. Now keep in mind that I eat meat and wear leather and fur and I'm ok with that (but not skinning anything alive, that's horrible - I even feel guilty when I eat a lobster because it's boiled alive).

People say that leather is the by product of the meat industry so the rest of the animal is used, but fur is only for wearing and not eating, so it's not necessary. Well to be honest, it's not absolutely neccessary to eat meat so if someone is against the deaths of animals when it's not absolutely neccessary (being put down when sick, being shot when attacking someone, being killed for food in situations where it is absolutely neccessary), how is it logical to use the argument that leather is ok and fur isn't because leather is a by product of meat and fur isn't neccessary? Thats my first question.

I'm not trying to argue vegetarianism, so please lets not make it into that. I'm asking about using that argument.

Also, the furs that I have were not bought new. They were bought second hand so whoever bought them first would be the one that created the space for the store to buy another one, creating the need for the manufacturer to kill more animals to make more furs. My wearing them and buying them second hand in no way caused any furrier to order more stock. It's actually no different than PETA using furs that people donate to them. So, my owning and wearing fur hasn't directly made any animals die the way it would if I bought a new full length Blackglama.

So my second question is, how is me buying them second hand and wearing them bad, and how does that hurt any animals at all?


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21 Sep 2012, 12:27 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
Here is something else I'm wondering about those who are ok with leather but not fur. Now keep in mind that I eat meat and wear leather and fur and I'm ok with that (but not skinning anything alive, that's horrible - I even feel guilty when I eat a lobster because it's boiled alive).

People say that leather is the by product of the meat industry so the rest of the animal is used, but fur is only for wearing and not eating, so it's not necessary. Well to be honest, it's not absolutely neccessary to eat meat so if someone is against the deaths of animals when it's not absolutely neccessary (being put down when sick, being shot when attacking someone, being killed for food in situations where it is absolutely neccessary), how is it logical to use the argument that leather is ok and fur isn't because leather is a by product of meat and fur isn't neccessary? Thats my first question.

I'm not trying to argue vegetarianism, so please lets not make it into that. I'm asking about using that argument.

Also, the furs that I have were not bought new. They were bought second hand so whoever bought them first would be the one that created the space for the store to buy another one, creating the need for the manufacturer to kill more animals to make more furs. My wearing them and buying them second hand in no way caused any furrier to order more stock. It's actually no different than PETA using furs that people donate to them. So, my owning and wearing fur hasn't directly made any animals die the way it would if I bought a new full length Blackglama.

So my second question is, how is me buying them second hand and wearing them bad, and how does that hurt any animals at all?


Don't feel sorry for the lobster--if it has been cooked correctly, it has felt nothing. If it has been cooked incorrectly, it's inedible.

As to your first question, there are certainly some animals hunted or farmed for fur that can enter the human food chain, seal and rabbit being the most obvious. Furthermore, the human food supply is not the only destination for animal products. There are a number of uses to which the rest of the animal can be put beyond entry into the human food chain. Pet food, animal feed, compost, and a variety of industrial products are all potential uses for the byproducts of fur trapping and farming.

As for your second question, I think this rather goes to the superiority of fur, because it will last for generations and be passed on from person to person. A garment made from synthetic fur, on the other hand would be very unlikely to survive to be resused in this way.


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21 Sep 2012, 12:27 pm

Some animals are killed for the fur, and some animals are killed for fur and meat. The best example is the furseal hunt. There are lots of seals in the North Atlantic. In Greenland they are hunted for their meat and the skin is sold. The meat is really good, quite gamey, very dark and very healthy. The skins are made to beautiful jackets. This trade is part of the inuit culture and is helping people to survive in the small settlements. http://www.greatgreenland.com/index.php ... 85&lang=en

There is also a sealhunt in Canada where the skins are used, I do not know about the meat. There is probably not a market, unfortunately.

The hunting methods differ but both hunts are sustainable and humane.

I would at any time choose to eat the meat and wear the skin instead of accepting culling of animals (culling is where animals are killed because they are viewed as unvanted, they are then burned or otherwise disposed of). Many countries are now talking about culling of seals because there are a lot of them in the N. Atlantic. I really do find that a vaste of resources.


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OliveOilMom
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21 Sep 2012, 12:37 pm

visagrunt wrote:
As for your second question, I think this rather goes to the superiority of fur, because it will last for generations and be passed on from person to person. A garment made from synthetic fur, on the other hand would be very unlikely to survive to be resused in this way.


I have a vintage fake leopard coat that's in great shape.

I also don't like rabbit fur, I think it just looks tacky. I did have a rabbit jacket in the 70's like every other girl, but nowdays I think rabbit looks tacky. Plus, as much as my youngest daughter hates me to have fur, she would probably kill me if I bought a rabbit coat, considering she has one for a pet. (Giant bunny of doom!)


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21 Sep 2012, 1:22 pm

I'm against killing animals as intelligent as foxes or mustelids. Furthermore, when it comes to less intelligent animals (eg. sheep and cattle), I'm against killing them as well if we're not going to use the whole animal.



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21 Sep 2012, 1:44 pm

I'm curious to know if any pro-fur people have ever seen a commercial fur operation?Did you know it takes 40 chinchillas to make ONE fur coat?And people don't eat the chinchillas or other fur bearers.They live in horrible isolated cages so they don't fight and damage their hide.My ex's Dad was a professional trapper so you don't even want to know about the leg hold traps,but it is true that an animal will chew it's own leg off to escape.I don't have a problem with used furs or by products from meat production but if you can't eat it don't skin it.
I get that native cultures in cold climates rely on local animals but they mostly use all the parts.In modern societies there are too many good alternatives.The Dalai Lama told the people of Tibet and those of Buddhist belief "If you are wearing fur then I am sitting here ashamed".The people of Tibet burned their furs.



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21 Sep 2012, 2:01 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
I can't wait until the time when Robots prey on humans as though we're a natural resource the way humans prey on animals. That being said I hate fur as it makes me very angry whereas leather is something I have no problem with. IDC if that's hypocritical.

It is unacceptable to kill ANY member of the Cat family for any reason.


If i find myself at the brunt end of a charging lion or a tiger while armed with a gun, i'm afraid tiddles is going down.



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21 Sep 2012, 2:04 pm

I'm not opposed to the fur industry per sae, however I am appalled by the behaviour of Chinese fur harvesters.

Their methods are unnecessarilly cruel, it is commonplace to skin dogs and minxes alive before they are left to bleed to death.



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21 Sep 2012, 2:08 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I'm curious to know if any pro-fur people have ever seen a commercial fur operation?Did you know it takes 40 chinchillas to make ONE fur coat?.


Im not sure what point the numbers are. From an anti-fur perspective, its rather a weak argument. You're better making a case more from the humane side. Particularly in the case of China as I already mentioned.

Fur coats tend to be luxury products which is why the prices are often outrageous. It is often an issue of profit over productivity. How many cows does it take to keep 1 Mcdonalds running for a day? Yet I see noone clambering to ban hamburgers.



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21 Sep 2012, 2:54 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
I can't wait until the time when Robots prey on humans as though we're a natural resource the way humans prey on animals. That being said I hate fur as it makes me very angry whereas leather is something I have no problem with. IDC if that's hypocritical.

It is unacceptable to kill ANY member of the Cat family for any reason.


Okay, so your friend is being chased by a lion, and you just happen to have a rifle...

Edit: Thomas beat me to it!



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21 Sep 2012, 2:58 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I'm curious to know if any pro-fur people have ever seen a commercial fur operation?Did you know it takes 40 chinchillas to make ONE fur coat?And people don't eat the chinchillas or other fur bearers.They live in horrible isolated cages so they don't fight and damage their hide.My ex's Dad was a professional trapper so you don't even want to know about the leg hold traps,but it is true that an animal will chew it's own leg off to escape.I don't have a problem with used furs or by products from meat production but if you can't eat it don't skin it.
I get that native cultures in cold climates rely on local animals but they mostly use all the parts.In modern societies there are too many good alternatives.The Dalai Lama told the people of Tibet and those of Buddhist belief "If you are wearing fur then I am sitting here ashamed".The people of Tibet burned their furs.


No I haven't seen it and I don't want to see it any more than I want to see how sausage is made. I'll probably never buy a new fur, and it's doubtful that I'll ever run across any second hand one again that's as cheap as I can afford, so it would be basically a moot point for me to see it. I won't be buying new fur so there is nothing to deter me from doing. I have no desire to cause myself to not enjoy something that I've had for years or to think about that going on and upset myself. I eat sausage on a regular basis and seeing how its made would deter me from eating it, so I don't watch that either.


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OliveOilMom
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21 Sep 2012, 3:00 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I'm not opposed to the fur industry per sae, however I am appalled by the behaviour of Chinese fur harvesters.

Their methods are unnecessarilly cruel, it is commonplace to skin dogs and minxes alive before they are left to bleed to death.


I don't understand why they would want to skin them alive. They can put dogs down with a shot cheaply and the small animals they can break their neck for free and they don't have to skin them alive. Who wears a dog coat anyway? Imagine how bad it would smell if it got wet!


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21 Sep 2012, 3:26 pm

I guess the point I wanted to make with the 40 chinchillas is that it was 40 living beings not one as when you harvest a large animal,40 times the suffering and no I don't agree with the beef industries treatment of cattle,I've seen the feed lots outside of Greely Co,and I've got relations that have Tyson poultry houses.My family also hunts and I have helped in the butchering but I can't kill anything because of my beliefs.I don't buy meat but i don't judge others for their moral choices.Once we were cavemen and we had no choice.Now we do.I just think that all beings have the right to be happy and that usually doesn't mean being eaten.
On a lighter note I saw a real humorous anti-fur ad(Italian I believe), that had a very proud lovely naked women with a very BIG bush,the caption read" This is the only fur I'll ever wear." :lol:



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21 Sep 2012, 4:21 pm

Well, before we get too far down the road of live skinning, let's bear in mind that Swiss Animal Protection (who released the video that is most often cited as evidence of these practices) refused to release its original, unedited footage. While I am not prepared to accept Chinese denials at face value, neither am I prepared to assume that these videos were not staged.


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21 Sep 2012, 4:40 pm

I don't see an issue with fur, leather or meat. However, I do think that such industries should have to treat their animals in a humane fashion. This may seem contradictory, however, it's highlighted by the difference in a grass fed, cow being slaughtered for meat then processed for its leather and a snake being skinned alive.



21 Sep 2012, 8:33 pm

TM wrote:
I don't see an issue with fur, leather or meat. However, I do think that such industries should have to treat their animals in a humane fashion. This may seem contradictory, however, it's highlighted by the difference in a grass fed, cow being slaughtered for meat then processed for its leather and a snake being skinned alive.




And I don't see an issue with involuntary organ extraction! Fur really isn't necessary any longer. People just like it. Organ however, most certainly ARE. Some people who do evil things deserve to be treated as objects as their actions have forfeited any humanity they once had. Quite telling that OliveOilMom failed to acknowledge my rebuttal to her claim that most killers have HEP C or AIDS just because her ex-hubby does.