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Pileo
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21 Sep 2012, 8:41 pm

Americans are conditioned to look down at the rebels. We're taught that they were the bad guys. I felt the same way until I learned about Cascadia. I learned that seeking independance isn't just a southern thing and can it be a very admirable goal.

I feel that as people grow more jaded with D.C., the more people are becoming accepting of these ideals. I mean, my father has always been a staunch Republican, very pro-American and lately, he's been growing jaded with both parties as they both shoot us down the toilet. I told him about my interest in Cascadia and what kind of place Cascadia could be if we ever gained independence from the US (independence from Canada for our brothers and sisters over in British Columbia) and he was very excited about it. He even wants to purchase a Cascadian flag to put up instead of his American flag. I've noticed that a lot more people are opening up to the idea of living outside of American territory.

For the south, I think their flag has been stolen from them by racists. Their flag is going to be continuously associated with racism until they stand up and lay down, "This is what this flag is about. This is what we want. This is what we believe in. This is what we don't believe in." And they really need to drive that message home and stick with it. They also need to turn to those racists and call them out on their usage of their flag.



21 Sep 2012, 8:42 pm

Pileo wrote:
Americans are conditioned to look down at the rebels. We're taught that they were the bad guys. I felt the same way until I learned about Cascadia. I learned that seeking independance isn't just a southern thing and can it be a very admirable goal.

I feel that as people grow more jaded with D.C., the more people are becoming accepting of these ideals. I mean, my father has always been a staunch Republican, very pro-American and lately, he's been growing jaded with both parties as they both shoot us down the toilet. I told him about my interest in Cascadia and what kind of place Cascadia could be if we ever gained independence from the US (independence from Canada for our brothers and sisters over in British Columbia) and he was very excited about it. He even wants to purchase a Cascadian flag to put up instead of his American flag. I've noticed that a lot more people are opening up to the idea of living outside of American territory.

For the south, I think their flag has been stolen from them by racists. Their flag is going to be continuously associated with racism until they stand up and lay down, "This is what this flag is about. This is what we want. This is what we believe in. This is what we don't believe in." And they really need to drive that message home and stick with it. They also need to turn to those racists and call them out on their usage of their flag.



What about the old South African flag?



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21 Sep 2012, 8:46 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Speaking of racist flags and symbols, what about THIS ONE here:



Image





{For those who don't know, this is the old South African flag(used by the apartheid regime) which was flown from 1948 to 1994}

Racist? I vote yes.


Off the back it doesn't look racist to me (I confess, I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to African countries), just kind of unoriginal. >_> I mean, I can imagine what went through that guys head. "Hm... Well... I guess we can use Microsoft Paint, copy & paste on a striped background... Yeah, lets do that."



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21 Sep 2012, 8:48 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Whats your opinion on the rebel flag? Do you think it's racist or not, and if so why or why not?

I do not think it is, because it's simply the flag of the Confederacy and a symbol of the South, not of racism. Although slavery was a major part of the Civil War, that's not the main thing it was about. Yes, many white supremacist groups love to fly the rebel flag and lots of racists like it, but that doesn't make it a racist symbol. More people who aren't racist fly it and like it than racists. Those of us who aren't racist now seem to outnumber racists down here, and that's a good thing. To most people I know down here, black or white, it's simply a symbol of the South. I've seen just as many black people as white people wearing Dixie Outfitters tshirts and they all have the rebel flag on them.



Yeah.... And I've seen quite a few Jewish people wearing t-shirts and sporting tattoos with Nazi symbols! :P




You lost. Get over it.


I know we lost, that has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about the flag that many of us see as a symbol of the South. Not the Antebellum South, but the South in general, as it is now.

What's losing the Civil War got to do with anything?

And I've never seen any Jewish people wearing Nazi symbols. If there are any, they are probably very, very few in number. Comparing the old South to the Nazi's is a bit of a stretch don't you think? Slavery was horrible, people were killed without any repercussions, people were treated like animals. It was a terrible thing. It should never had happened and hopefully there will never be anything like that again, and certainly never in the US. However I don't think it's up there with what Hitler did.


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21 Sep 2012, 8:49 pm

Tequila wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
It's impossible to detoxify it when people insist that you are wrong and that is is about racism.


If you have a lot of black friends, it might be worthwhile getting them to talk to the constantly-offended and point out their own relationship to the flag.


I'm sure that people who get offended by it say something to them about it. I don't think they need me to get more people to say something to them about it lol.


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21 Sep 2012, 8:49 pm

I wonder how many non-southerners know that Robert E. Lee did not own slaves?He was offered command of the Union Army but refused because he could not fight against his beloved Virginia.He did not think slavery was right,.We do have our own culture here compared to white bread America,not many new people here till air conditioning was invented.Personally I'm tired of cultural prejudiced,tired of people making fun of the way we talk,our folklore and our food.And when it comes to racist remarks the word CRACKER is as offensive as the N word,an insult is an insult.And when it comes to good manners(yes mamm,no sir )well,we have the rest of the country beat,.



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21 Sep 2012, 8:50 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Whats your opinion on the rebel flag? Do you think it's racist or not, and if so why or why not?

I do not think it is, because it's simply the flag of the Confederacy and a symbol of the South, not of racism. Although slavery was a major part of the Civil War, that's not the main thing it was about. Yes, many white supremacist groups love to fly the rebel flag and lots of racists like it, but that doesn't make it a racist symbol. More people who aren't racist fly it and like it than racists. Those of us who aren't racist now seem to outnumber racists down here, and that's a good thing. To most people I know down here, black or white, it's simply a symbol of the South. I've seen just as many black people as white people wearing Dixie Outfitters tshirts and they all have the rebel flag on them.



Yeah.... And I've seen quite a few Jewish people wearing t-shirts and sporting tattoos with Nazi symbols! :P




You lost. Get over it.


I know we lost, that has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about the flag that many of us see as a symbol of the South. Not the Antebellum South, but the South in general, as it is now.

What's losing the Civil War got to do with anything?

And I've never seen any Jewish people wearing Nazi symbols. If there are any, they are probably very, very few in number. Comparing the old South to the Nazi's is a bit of a stretch don't you think? Slavery was horrible, people were killed without any repercussions, people were treated like animals. It was a terrible thing. It should never had happened and hopefully there will never be anything like that again, and certainly never in the US. However I don't think it's up there with what Hitler did.


It was worse it lasted for centuries.
Hitler was only in power for less than a decade (I did not google his tenure so don't kill me if I am wrong)


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21 Sep 2012, 8:51 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Speaking of racist flags and symbols, what about THIS ONE here:

Image

{For those who don't know, this is the old South African flag(used by the apartheid regime) which was flown from 1948 to 1994}

Racist? I vote yes.


Interestingly, the Afrikaners tried to get the Union Jack removed from the flag several times. They were no allies of the British (in fact, a lot of Afrikaner nationalists allied with the Nazis during World War II which is kind of obvious when you consider the wars that were fought between the British and the Boers).

I doubt you'll find many blacks who identify with that flag in South Africa. The Southern flag, though, seems to be a different story altogether.



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21 Sep 2012, 8:57 pm

Pileo wrote:

For the south, I think their flag has been stolen from them by racists. Their flag is going to be continuously associated with racism until they stand up and lay down, "This is what this flag is about. This is what we want. This is what we believe in. This is what we don't believe in." And they really need to drive that message home and stick with it. They also need to turn to those racists and call them out on their usage of their flag.


We have been saying that for decades, but nobody listens. Everybody in the rest of the country thinks they know what we think and feel and believe better than we do.

Yes, our flag was stolen by racists. Many didn't want Civil Rights and used the rebel flag as their symbol because they wanted to keep the South segregated and so they slapped what all of us think of as the Southern flag on their agenda. It stuck. Yes, it's also associated with racism from the slavery era but something else that everyone seems to forget is that even though slavery was abolished up North first, that didn't mean that people weren't racist. The North back then was just as racist as the South, they just didn't have slaves. It's not like we were all down here trying to force the blacks to stay slaves while up North they were running for congress and going to graduate school. Yes, the South took longer to get with the program than the rest of the country. Yes, there were and still are a lot of racists in the South. That does not mean that the South is racist or that anything that represents the South is racist.

What would it take for the rest of the world to listen to what the majority of us actually say, think, believe and feel, rather than simply decide they know what we are about and tell us we are wrong about ourselves? Or is that too much to ask because of our great sin of being born below the Mason-Dixon line?


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21 Sep 2012, 8:57 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Whats your opinion on the rebel flag? Do you think it's racist or not, and if so why or why not?

I do not think it is, because it's simply the flag of the Confederacy and a symbol of the South, not of racism. Although slavery was a major part of the Civil War, that's not the main thing it was about. Yes, many white supremacist groups love to fly the rebel flag and lots of racists like it, but that doesn't make it a racist symbol. More people who aren't racist fly it and like it than racists. Those of us who aren't racist now seem to outnumber racists down here, and that's a good thing. To most people I know down here, black or white, it's simply a symbol of the South. I've seen just as many black people as white people wearing Dixie Outfitters tshirts and they all have the rebel flag on them.



Yeah.... And I've seen quite a few Jewish people wearing t-shirts and sporting tattoos with Nazi symbols! :P




You lost. Get over it.


I know we lost, that has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about the flag that many of us see as a symbol of the South. Not the Antebellum South, but the South in general, as it is now.

What's losing the Civil War got to do with anything?

And I've never seen any Jewish people wearing Nazi symbols. If there are any, they are probably very, very few in number. Comparing the old South to the Nazi's is a bit of a stretch don't you think? Slavery was horrible, people were killed without any repercussions, people were treated like animals. It was a terrible thing. It should never had happened and hopefully there will never be anything like that again, and certainly never in the US. However I don't think it's up there with what Hitler did.




Just trying to ruffle some feathers!



However, the "rebel" flag was more than just a battle flag in the civil war. It was extensively used during the reconstruction by the Ku Klux Klan as well as segregationists during the civil rights movement. I can understand why many blacks feel angered by crackers who fly it in the name of southern pride because it was flown by those who instigated lynchings, which were the American equivalent of pogroms and resulted in at least 5,000 blacks being brutally murdered. So to me, that flag is much more than the symbol of the antebellum south, but also the banner of the KKK.



@Pileo: Sorry, but are you that dense? IDK how old you are but I'm old enough to remember that flag when apartheid was still in effect and especially during the 80s when the struggle against apartheid caught the world's attention. Nowadays, that flag is considered THE Symbol of apartheid. It is equally despicable as the confederate flag.



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21 Sep 2012, 9:00 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I wonder how many non-southerners know that Robert E. Lee did not own slaves?He was offered command of the Union Army but refused because he could not fight against his beloved Virginia.He did not think slavery was right,.We do have our own culture here compared to white bread America,not many new people here till air conditioning was invented.Personally I'm tired of cultural prejudiced,tired of people making fun of the way we talk,our folklore and our food.And when it comes to racist remarks the word CRACKER is as offensive as the N word,an insult is an insult.And when it comes to good manners(yes mamm,no sir )well,we have the rest of the country beat,.


You go Misslizard!! They don't know it because they weren't taught it because unless it villifies us, it's not an important part of history. I'm tired of know it alls who think they know more about us and our culture and our history than we do.

I wanted to start a discussion about who thinks the flag is racist and who doesnt and why, and actually discuss it, but it seems that I'm just being told by much smarter folks lucky enough not to be born down here how wrong I am! No discussion at all, just "No, your flag means this!! !" regardless of the fact that it's not their flag so they don't know WHAT it means.

All I can say about them is "bless their hearts". ;-)


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21 Sep 2012, 9:01 pm

I have heard the term "Heritage not hate" hundreds of times by people that fly this flag. They are not exactly people I would want to associate with. However, it is their right to put it in their yard or on their vehicle.

There was a big stir in Georgia in the early 2000's over the Rebel flag being part of the state flag. I don't know the exact details of the controversy, but the legislature changed the design of the state flag due to the negative connotations that come with having a rebel flag as part of an official state flag.


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21 Sep 2012, 9:02 pm

Tequila wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Speaking of racist flags and symbols, what about THIS ONE here:

Image

{For those who don't know, this is the old South African flag(used by the apartheid regime) which was flown from 1948 to 1994}

Racist? I vote yes.


Interestingly, the Afrikaners tried to get the Union Jack removed from the flag several times. They were no allies of the British (in fact, a lot of Afrikaner nationalists allied with the Nazis during World War II which is kind of obvious when you consider the wars that were fought between the British and the Boers).

I doubt you'll find many blacks who identify with that flag in South Africa. The Southern flag, though, seems to be a different story altogether.


The rebel flag today represents Southern culture and heritage. Our differences down here from the rest of the country. The things we love about the South, not the things we hate about our past. It seems to me that it's the people who don't live here and don't know anything about it today that are the ones who decide that it's racist, not those of us who fly it.

Then again, why in the world would anybody take somebodys word about what it means from somebody who actually wears the flag? That would be ridiculous wouldn't it?


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21 Sep 2012, 9:09 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
Whats your opinion on the rebel flag? Do you think it's racist or not, and if so why or why not?

I do not think it is, because it's simply the flag of the Confederacy and a symbol of the South, not of racism. Although slavery was a major part of the Civil War, that's not the main thing it was about. Yes, many white supremacist groups love to fly the rebel flag and lots of racists like it, but that doesn't make it a racist symbol. More people who aren't racist fly it and like it than racists. Those of us who aren't racist now seem to outnumber racists down here, and that's a good thing. To most people I know down here, black or white, it's simply a symbol of the South. I've seen just as many black people as white people wearing Dixie Outfitters tshirts and they all have the rebel flag on them.



Yeah.... And I've seen quite a few Jewish people wearing t-shirts and sporting tattoos with Nazi symbols! :P




You lost. Get over it.


I know we lost, that has nothing to do with it. I'm talking about the flag that many of us see as a symbol of the South. Not the Antebellum South, but the South in general, as it is now.

What's losing the Civil War got to do with anything?

And I've never seen any Jewish people wearing Nazi symbols. If there are any, they are probably very, very few in number. Comparing the old South to the Nazi's is a bit of a stretch don't you think? Slavery was horrible, people were killed without any repercussions, people were treated like animals. It was a terrible thing. It should never had happened and hopefully there will never be anything like that again, and certainly never in the US. However I don't think it's up there with what Hitler did.




Just trying to ruffle some feathers!

What an admirable goal. "I think I'll be an *ss to somebody just because". How lovely!


However, the "rebel" flag was more than just a battle flag in the civil war. It was extensively used during the reconstruction by the Ku Klux Klan as well as segregationists during the civil rights movement.

I said that already. They took the symbol of the South and stuck it on their agenda. That doesn't mean that's what it represents. Just because someone co-opts something doesn't mean thats what it's about. The rest of us simply refused to let them ruin it for us. We don't see it that way, we know they used it and still do use it, but we aren't letting them win. They won't make us stop wearing it and putting it on our things, because if we do then that gives them more power.

I can understand why many blacks feel angered by crackers who fly it in the name of southern pride because it was flown by those who instigated lynchings, which were the American equivalent of pogroms and resulted in at least 5,000 blacks being brutally murdered. So to me, that flag is much more than the symbol of the antebellum south, but also the banner of the KKK.

Well, I can understand why some do too, but you'll find more who get upset over it out of the South than in the South. Those in the South usually know what it means and what it doesn't mean. Also, everybody that flies the flag is NOT a cracker! Would you call my black friend Betty a cracker? I saw her today when she came by to show me her new car. It's a brand new Chrysler and she's got a rebel flag tag on the front that says "American by birth, Southern by the grace of God" and the words are on the background of a rebel flag. Is she a cracker?

As I said before, just because somebody stole something that was in use by someone else doesn't make it theirs. The Nazis's stole a fairly obscure symbol, but these racists stole a popular symbol that was still in use. Why should we stop using it just because of what it means to you, who obviously doesn't know what it really means?




@Pileo: Sorry, but are you that dense? IDK how old you are but I'm old enough to remember that flag when apartheid was still in effect and especially during the 80s when the struggle against apartheid caught the world's attention. Nowadays, that flag is considered THE Symbol of apartheid. It is equally despicable as the confederate flag.


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21 Sep 2012, 9:12 pm

Yes we lost,it's impossible for an agricultural based economy to take on an opponent that is industrialized.But the Yankees didn't want the poor free slaves,look at what happened in the FivePoints section of N.Y.And why is a War criminal like Grant on the 50 dollar bill?If you don't think Sherman's march to the sea through Georgia wasn't a war crime then again ,double standard,General Lee did NOT let his troops burn,steal and rapeThe southern P.O.W.s didn't need to starve up north,plenty of food up there,the poor P.O.W.s down south,no food for the locals so you know the poor captives got practically nothing.War sucks and whether or not you win someone is going to get screwed over.



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21 Sep 2012, 9:28 pm

I think the trouble you're going to run into, Olive (can I call you Olive?) is that symbols by their nature are subjective. If enough people see the Rebel Flag as racist, then it's racist - that's sort of how symbolism works - and as a result people who don't see it that way will end up eternally frustrated.

I'll be the first to say that the flag - and the rebellion! - stands for things besides its racist connotations. Sadly, that doesn't mean they aren't there.


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