The Pirate Bay and Megaupload scandals: Never forget.

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Beauty_pact
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16 Oct 2012, 9:36 pm

http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/06/afterma ... own-words/

http://www.avaaz.org/en/petition/Grant_ ... for_pardon

http://kim.com/scandal

Discuss the corruption and rottenness of the U.S. "justice" system, here, and the cowardice of other governments that are bullied to submit to it. The Megaupload case is so alike the Swedish Pirate Bay case.... except the New Zealand court system at least has sided with the innocent party. Of course, that is how it started out, regarding The Pirate Bay, in Sweden, too, but threats of trade embargoes against Sweden, if something wasn't "done" about it, made what wasn't illegal to become "illegal", anyway.... however, I suppose it may be difficult to do it the Swedish method, after the apology to Megaupload's founder, by New Zealand's prime minister:

http://m.gizmodo.co.uk/2012/09/megauplo ... -minister/

In Sweden, the Pirate Bay case wasn't even allowed to be taken to the Supreme Court!


A post I made on another forum, at the time of the rejection of the trial:

Quote:
Source: http://www.piratpartiet.se/nyheter/h%C3 ... m%C3%A5let

Translation by me:

Quote:
The battle over The Pirate Bay has raged on ever since 2006 and led to convictions in both the district court and court of appeal. The case is principally interesting in many ways, yet the Supreme Court today decided not to try the Pirate Bay case.

- The Pirate Bay case is principally important and it's unfortunate that the Supreme Court chooses not to take up the case, says The Pirate Party's party leader Anna Troberg. The handling [of the case] has, already from the strike in May 2006, been insufficient, and it had been desireable that the Supreme Court would've approached the case.

The Pirate Bay case has, ever since the 31st of May, when fifty or so police officers stormed the web hotel PRQ and confiscated all servers - not just Pirate Bay's - been surrounded by questions. Prosecutors and courts have displayed an insufficient technical competence. One of the police's investigators wage negotiated with Warner - one of the parties in the case - in the middle of the ongoing investigation - and then got a position with Warner, right after the completion of the investigation. Cultural minister Lena Adelsohn-Liljeroth chose to support the first conviction, despite that the conviction had been appealed and the legal process therefore had not ended.

- There are many questions that need to be straightened out, both in and around this case, says Troberg. Due to the Supreme Court's decision, we will be sitting with many loose ends that will complicate in future cases of a similar sort. The intellectual property industry is mobilizing, and as of this decision, they will intensify their hunt for owners of torrent sites and individual file sharers.

Later today comes the verdict from Nacka district court against a man [who] has file shared sixty movies via, among others, The Pirate Bay. During that trial, it was clear that the prosecutor, despite him having the police's expert beside him, hadn't insight in how the ADSL technique works.

In three weeks, a trial also begins against the man who ran the torrent site Studentbay. Today's answer from the Supreme Court will affect this trial in every sense of the way.

Information:
Högsta Domstolen [the Supreme Court (www.hogstadomstolen.se)], 08-561 666 00


Where are the court cases against Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, Facebook and similar companies with all too comparable, just as lawful/"unlawful" services, I wonder? Clearly, who you are matters a great deal. Having a famous company over something like The Pirate Bay, or even Megaupload, obviously matters a great deal, even in Sweden. Is this acceptable, or should these unjust people be held accountable for their wrongful actions?

Lawyer Per E. Samuelsson, representative for one of the accused, explains that his client wants to proceed to the European Court of Justice, and that it is very likely that this will be done. He notes his disappointment with the Supreme Court's lack of interest in such a well-known case, but isn't surprised, pointing out how Swedish jurists tend to want to forget about things, when a heated situation develops.

I ask: Should they be allowed to forget? Furthermore: Will the European Court of Justice stand up to its name, and not just be a puppet court, like that of Sweden?


From what I've heard, the European Court of Justice actually told that it *would* take up the case.... don't have a source for it, right now, though....



GGPViper
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16 Oct 2012, 9:43 pm

I'm sorry. I must be dumb as dirt...

But what is wrong with preventing theft?



DerStadtschutz
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16 Oct 2012, 9:51 pm

GGPViper wrote:
I'm sorry. I must be dumb as dirt...

But what is wrong with preventing theft?


It's not theft...
Image

Also, the premise behind all this anti-file sharing crap is that it somehow hurts the industry. Oh really? Back when the VCR came out, movie theatres were supposed to go out of business, and everyone was supposed to stop watching TV because of it. Did that ever happen? No. Tape recorders were viewed in the same exact way... That if we had tape recorders, we'd stop buying CDs and tapes and stuff. Is that industry still around, or has the tape recorder destroyed it? What about back in the 80s? There was this huge campaign called "don't copy that floppy," And it's since been updated to say some BS about CDs. The PC software industry is still alive and kicking. The entertainment industry rakes in billions upon billions of dollars, despite the fact that people copy and share the things they make. And the stupid thing is, they automatically assume that every download is a lost sale, but that's BS. I don't like everything I download. if I couldn't download most of it, I simply wouldn't see it at all. I'm sure as hell not gonna buy something I've never seen, and even when I do see it, it's not always any good. So their claim of how many lost sales they've had is complete BS. And even if it wasn't, they STILL make billions upon billions of dollars. They don't need anymore money, and if they want more money, they need to put out a product that people want to buy. I don't go to the movies anymore because the movies they play are utter crap. And that's the same reason I don't buy CDs. That, and most of the music I listen to is obscure or old.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa7RB3HQkGQ[/youtube]

ARRR!! !

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up863eQKGUI[/youtube]



DerStadtschutz
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16 Oct 2012, 10:03 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM8PT1eAvY[/youtube]



GGPViper
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16 Oct 2012, 10:14 pm

Would you kindly restate your claim in a somewhat more concise manner without spamming the thread into oblivion?



DerStadtschutz
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16 Oct 2012, 10:24 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Would you kindly restate your claim in a somewhat more concise manner without spamming the thread into oblivion?


File sharing is NOT stealing.

Better?



ArrantPariah
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16 Oct 2012, 10:27 pm

Is the Pirate Bay still running?



GGPViper
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16 Oct 2012, 10:29 pm

DerStadtschutz wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Would you kindly restate your claim in a somewhat more concise manner without spamming the thread into oblivion?


File sharing is NOT stealing.

Better?


I agree that file sharing is not stealing... if the content creator consents to the file sharing...



roronoa79
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16 Oct 2012, 10:38 pm

Let us say I have a sandwich. My friend is hungry and also wants a sandwich. I have a replicator with which I can create an exact copy of my sandwich which I could give to my friend. I am not claiming to have made the sandwich nor am I selling it for my own profit.
The concept is the same; file sharing is not theft.

Those whose products are shared digitally are foolish for thinking they can hope to make as much profit from their products as they have in the past (with analogue formats) with digital formats which can be copied easily with technology that anyone can obtain.


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GGPViper
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16 Oct 2012, 10:58 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
Let us say I have a sandwich. My friend is hungry and also wants a sandwich. I have a replicator with which I can create an exact copy of my sandwich which I could give to my friend. I am not claiming to have made the sandwich nor am I selling it for my own profit.
The concept is the same; file sharing is not theft.

Those whose products are shared digitally are foolish for thinking they can hope to make as much profit from their products as they have in the past (with analogue formats) with digital formats which can be copied easily with technology that anyone can obtain.


I am well aware of the economic concept of a non-rival good, thank you. Treating other people as complete idiots is not necessarily the best way of debating.

While there are economic reasons why people should pay for non-rival goods (like the obvious financial incentive it brings to produce the good in the first place), how can you justify enjoying the fruit of other peoples' labour and not giving them credit for it?



DerStadtschutz
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16 Oct 2012, 11:22 pm

roronoa79 wrote:
Let us say I have a sandwich. My friend is hungry and also wants a sandwich. I have a replicator with which I can create an exact copy of my sandwich which I could give to my friend. I am not claiming to have made the sandwich nor am I selling it for my own profit.
The concept is the same; file sharing is not theft.

Those whose products are shared digitally are foolish for thinking they can hope to make as much profit from their products as they have in the past (with analogue formats) with digital formats which can be copied easily with technology that anyone can obtain.


Dude, I love your avatar. Megaman 2 was an awesome game.



DerStadtschutz
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16 Oct 2012, 11:23 pm

GGPViper wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Let us say I have a sandwich. My friend is hungry and also wants a sandwich. I have a replicator with which I can create an exact copy of my sandwich which I could give to my friend. I am not claiming to have made the sandwich nor am I selling it for my own profit.
The concept is the same; file sharing is not theft.

Those whose products are shared digitally are foolish for thinking they can hope to make as much profit from their products as they have in the past (with analogue formats) with digital formats which can be copied easily with technology that anyone can obtain.


I am well aware of the economic concept of a non-rival good, thank you. Treating other people as complete idiots is not necessarily the best way of debating.

While there are economic reasons why people should pay for non-rival goods (like the obvious financial incentive it brings to produce the good in the first place), how can you justify enjoying the fruit of other peoples' labour and not giving them credit for it?


Who isn't giving the artists credit? Also, in most cases, the "artist" whose name you'll find next to the song didn't actually sing, write, or play the song at all.



Oodain
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17 Oct 2012, 5:40 am

GGPViper wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
Let us say I have a sandwich. My friend is hungry and also wants a sandwich. I have a replicator with which I can create an exact copy of my sandwich which I could give to my friend. I am not claiming to have made the sandwich nor am I selling it for my own profit.
The concept is the same; file sharing is not theft.

Those whose products are shared digitally are foolish for thinking they can hope to make as much profit from their products as they have in the past (with analogue formats) with digital formats which can be copied easily with technology that anyone can obtain.


I am well aware of the economic concept of a non-rival good, thank you. Treating other people as complete idiots is not necessarily the best way of debating.

While there are economic reasons why people should pay for non-rival goods (like the obvious financial incentive it brings to produce the good in the first place), how can you justify enjoying the fruit of other peoples' labour and not giving them credit for it?


the same can be said in reverse,
does a shareholder with no personal investment to speak of hold the right to continously profit from the work of others?

but even after that piratebay is in itself not illegal, no matter what is shared on it, the most precise analogy is to say that if piratebay is illegal so is google, since they are both nothing more than search engines with an index.

when it comes to creative content and other non-rival goods then there should be a limit to just how far from the actual creater the rights can end, at the very least,

another fun little thought excercise is to look at rights of use, in some of these cases the implication is made that if you lend someone something then that in itself is illegal if they dont own a copy, that is where we legislatively are today, you buy the rights to watch or use something,
should we allow authors to do the same?
would libraries even be financially possible were that the case?

much easier for there not be any laws regarding personal non profit use with an increased consequence if money is made on it, it is happening quite naturally anyway, multiple a list bands are releasing albums for free digitally and then cash in on the "pay what you think its worth" system, this also cuts out most of the dead wheight meaning that even if people only pay a third and only a third of all people that regularly use it actually pay at all, then it still means the band is better off finacnially than they were under the common copyright system of the physical world.

it also prevents talentstealing and most large corporate labels deal almost exclsuively in that.


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17 Oct 2012, 2:21 pm

Oodain wrote:
the same can be said in reverse,
does a shareholder with no personal investment to speak of hold the right to continously profit from the work of others?

Well, the shareholder got the *shares* some way, didn't he or she?

Oodain wrote:
much easier for there not be any laws regarding personal non profit use with an increased consequence if money is made on it, it is happening quite naturally anyway, [b]multiple a list bands are releasing albums for free digitally and then cash in on the "pay what you think its worth" system,[b] this also cuts out most of the dead wheight meaning that even if people only pay a third and only a third of all people that regularly use it actually pay at all, then it still means the band is better off finacnially than they were under the common copyright system of the physical world.

I have no problem with bands releasing albums for free. Download all you like. I have a problem with people who don't respect the *artists* who don't release content for free.



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17 Oct 2012, 2:37 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Oodain wrote:
the same can be said in reverse,
does a shareholder with no personal investment to speak of hold the right to continously profit from the work of others?

Well, the shareholder got the *shares* some way, didn't he or she?

Oodain wrote:
much easier for there not be any laws regarding personal non profit use with an increased consequence if money is made on it, it is happening quite naturally anyway, [b]multiple a list bands are releasing albums for free digitally and then cash in on the "pay what you think its worth" system,[b] this also cuts out most of the dead wheight meaning that even if people only pay a third and only a third of all people that regularly use it actually pay at all, then it still means the band is better off finacnially than they were under the common copyright system of the physical world.

I have no problem with bands releasing albums for free. Download all you like. I have a problem with people who don't respect the *artists* who don't release content for free.


The artist gets an average 9% of the income on iTunes. An average song has been downloaded 1400 times.

They mostly make money by endorsements, concerts/tours, merchandise and so on.



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17 Oct 2012, 2:37 pm

Oodain wrote:
the same can be said in reverse,
does a shareholder with no personal investment to speak of hold the right to continously profit from the work of others?


Thanks for bringing this discussion into a territory I actually care about enough. "No personal investment" is a weird way to put it since the investment is indeed very personal. A shareholder has elected to postpone gratification now, in exchange for more gratification later.

Much like when someone lends you money and expects to get their money back + interest.

If I buy 10% of the equity in a company, I literally own 10% of that company's after tax profit, so I'm entitled to 10% of the proceeds left over after everyone else has been paid, which includes the person or persons who willfully and knowingly entered a legally binding contract to exchange their labor for payment.

If they want to, they can come to me and offer to buy back my ownership share of the company at a premium to compensate for future cash flows I won't be receiving, thus netting more of the benefits of their labor, in exchange for postponing their gratification for later.

So, your example really only shows that you have no idea how share based ownership works. Which unsurprisingly enough is a hallmark of people who love befitting from the labor of others through redistribution policies in the form of socialism, who also complain about evil shareholders.