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Taverson
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20 Oct 2012, 8:39 pm

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DISCLAIMER! Do not move this to the Haven. I am currently not suicidal or depressed. I'm simply attempting to understand the logic of forcing people to continue living in truly impossible to escape circumstances.


I want to know why society feels the urge to prevent suicide.

Is it a question of control? Or a question of empathy?

Does society really have any interest in whether you kill yourself?

I personally view suicide as something that should be a choice. I don't think it should be made lightly, but I think it should be an option for those who have no reason left to live - no chance to have any kind of life.

I think it is cruelty to force someone to stay alive when they have nothing to live for and no desire to live.


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Last edited by Taverson on 20 Oct 2012, 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

YippySkippy
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20 Oct 2012, 8:54 pm

Most people who contemplate suicide are suffering from treatable depression. Once the depression is controlled, they are glad to be alive. Whilst under the influence of depression, however, they often have difficulty recognizing that they are depressed (like a drunk person who thinks they are sober).
And just as drunk people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, so do depressed people.



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20 Oct 2012, 9:23 pm

If you had a drunk friend who was planning to spend all of their money at the casino, wouldn't you try to stop them?

Well, it's an even bigger and more irreversible decision than that, and being depressed can make you even more irrational than being drunk.



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20 Oct 2012, 9:28 pm

Didn't A.E. Housman say to end yourself when your sickness is in your soul?I'm not advocating suicide but if you have a terminal illness or life is intolerable(I will end myself if I ever have to live in a nursing home) I think you have the right to take your life.People should seek treatment for depression or other problems that can cause one to terminate their life needlessly,and no one should kill themselves out of spite or to make someone else suffer.But I think sometimes(maybe not that often)it's justified.And ,yes,I have had suicides in my family so I do understand the sorrow of a unnecessary death. But when I get old I'm not living in one of those places.Death sounds better.



Taverson
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20 Oct 2012, 9:30 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Most people who contemplate suicide are suffering from treatable depression. Once the depression is controlled, they are glad to be alive. Whilst under the influence of depression, however, they often have difficulty recognizing that they are depressed (like a drunk person who thinks they are sober).
And just as drunk people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, so do depressed people.


So take me for example. I am not depressed at this given moment. When I look into the future and see that I have no viable options left to lead a healthy life, I would feel the need to kill myself.

I will agree that most suicidal people are under the influence of depression but what about those who aren't?

You can't just use "oh you have difficulty recognizing it" to cover for the people who aren't depressed but see no sense in living a life of irreversible economic misery.


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Taverson
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20 Oct 2012, 9:34 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Didn't A.E. Housman say to end yourself when your sickness is in your soul?I'm not advocating suicide but if you have a terminal illness or life is intolerable(I will end myself if I ever have to live in a nursing home) I think you have the right to take your life.People should seek treatment for depression or other problems that can cause one to terminate their life needlessly,and no one should kill themselves out of spite or to make someone else suffer.But I think sometimes(maybe not that often)it's justified.And ,yes,I have had suicides in my family so I do understand the sorrow of a unnecessary death. But when I get old I'm not living in one of those places.Death sounds better.


If I somehow survive to sixty, I'm ending my life regardless. Humans were never meant to live as long as we're living. All these advancements in science and medicine are merely prolonging physical and emotional agony.

While you definitely add another area of thought concerning my OP, I was generally thinking of people who simply have no means to survive. No money, no ability to receive support from friends or family...

While old people can fit that category, I was referring to the 18-45 crowd.

I have had this discussion with my parents several times that if I ever find myself starving or with absolutely no prospects that I will kill myself. I have done my best and will continue to do my best to make sure they know it's not attempted revenge against anyone who has hurt me..

I just believe if I ever find myself in a rut with no logical escape then it would be time to self-terminate.


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20 Oct 2012, 9:53 pm

I think it's ethical to try to prevent suicide through persuasion or constructive treatment. It's unethical to actually stop someone from committing suicide, assuming they've thought it out and are in the most reasonable state of mind they can attain in the near future. If they try to commit suicide in a sudden fit of rage, then they should be stopped so they can reconsider when they're calm.



Last edited by UnLoser on 21 Oct 2012, 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Taverson
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20 Oct 2012, 10:06 pm

UnLoser wrote:
I think it's ethical to try to prevent suicide through persuasion or constructive treatment. It's unethical to actually prevent someone from committing suicide, assuming they've thought it out and are in the most reasonable state of mind they can attain in the near future. If they try to commit suicide in a sudden fit of rage, then they should be stopped so they can reconsider when they're calm.


In reference to the bolded section of your post:

But try telling that to anyone.

And they'll simply say "You're depressed." "You have a warped view of reality." "You're angry."

Or some random catchphrase drawn out of a hat as to why they must forcibly stop you.

I have an opinion that society as a whole wants to prevent suicide regardless because then the person is free from the control that society seeks to put over every individual. Paranoid? Maybe..

But it truly seems that regardless of if the reasoning is made with a "reasonable state of mind" you will always be stopped, locked up, and drugged.

It's a gross violation of human rights in my eyes.


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20 Oct 2012, 11:24 pm

Which is more ethical: To prevent a person from committing suicide, or to stand by and watch them do it?

I say it depends on how much you value the lives of others. If you are pro-life, then you'll do all that you can to prevent suicide. If you are pro-choice, then suicide should not be an issue (as long as their blood and brains don't splatter on you).


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21 Oct 2012, 1:04 am

Taverson wrote:
Quote:
DISCLAIMER! Do not move this to the Haven. I am currently not suicidal or depressed. I'm simply attempting to understand the logic of forcing people to continue living in truly impossible to escape circumstances.


I want to know why society feels the urge to prevent suicide.

Is it a question of control? Or a question of empathy?

Does society really have any interest in whether you kill yourself?

I personally view suicide as something that should be a choice. I don't think it should be made lightly, but I think it should be an option for those who have no reason left to live - no chance to have any kind of life.

I think it is cruelty to force someone to stay alive when they have nothing to live for and no desire to live.

A lot of it depends on the individual circumstances; teens, for example, should always be prevented from killing themselves if possible because their despair is often based on local, temporal circumstances and, if they fail in their attempt, they can go on to happier lives than they imagine are possible while in the depths of teen misery. Likewise people who are temporarily (vs. chronically/biologically) depressed or are bipolar.

Otoh, sometimes people have legitimate reasons to want to die. If someone is terminally ill, and doesn't want to die horrifically, it is absolutely legitimate for them to want to peacefully take their lives with their loved ones all around.

Where it's in-between is when people have decent lives, but are chronically depressed. There are degrees of depression, and antidepressants tend to do more actual good the more biological (as opposed to circumstantial) the depression is.



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21 Oct 2012, 4:51 am

Taverson wrote:
I personally view suicide as something that should be a choice. I don't think it should be made lightly, but I think it should be an option for those who have no reason left to live - no chance to have any kind of life.


I think it depends on how you define "no reason left to live" and "no chance to have any kind of life."

Brain dead, in a coma, physically incapacitated, in never ending physical pain are, to me, all legitimate excuses to end one's life. In fact, most of these people are only alive due to modern medicine/technology and would have died naturally anyway. So in those cases, I fully understand the right to die. Ironically, most of those people are actually incapable of committing suicide, and that's where questions of euthanasia come in.

Now, people who actually do kill themselves, or attempt it, often feel they have "no reason left to live," but it seems it's often based on self-pity. There are suicide attempt survivors who later say they were glad they failed. So if it's a question of emotion and mental state, are these people in their "right mind," and therefore even capable of determining whether their excuses for suicide are valid?

And is it ethical to allow people not in their right mind to make such a major decision?



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21 Oct 2012, 10:08 am

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You can't just use "oh you have difficulty recognizing it" to cover for the people who aren't depressed but see no sense in living a life of irreversible economic misery.


The instinct to live is powerful and basic. In order for a person to want to commit suicide just because he/she is poor, there would have to be mental illness involved. Perhaps you should think about why you identify personally with such a position?



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21 Oct 2012, 10:42 am

YippySkippy wrote:
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You can't just use "oh you have difficulty recognizing it" to cover for the people who aren't depressed but see no sense in living a life of irreversible economic misery.


The instinct to live is powerful and basic. In order for a person to want to commit suicide just because he/she is poor, there would have to be mental illness involved. Perhaps you should think about why you identify personally with such a position?


The classical story of the soldier who throws himself on a hand grenade to save buddies. Is that a sign of mental illness or is it a sign of heroism?

ruveyn



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21 Oct 2012, 10:51 am

ruveyn wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
You can't just use "oh you have difficulty recognizing it" to cover for the people who aren't depressed but see no sense in living a life of irreversible economic misery.


The instinct to live is powerful and basic. In order for a person to want to commit suicide just because he/she is poor, there would have to be mental illness involved. Perhaps you should think about why you identify personally with such a position?


The classical story of the soldier who throws himself on a hand grenade to save buddies. Is that a sign of mental illness or is it a sign of heroism?

ruveyn


It is a sign of a Medal of Honor. There is a thin line between heroism and insanity.

But from the perspective of the soon-to-be-posthumously-rewarded-medal-of-honor-recipient, why not? He's going to die from the blast anyway, so personally, he has nothing to lose... Why not save his friends in his dying moment of awesome?



Taverson
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21 Oct 2012, 11:01 am

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
You can't just use "oh you have difficulty recognizing it" to cover for the people who aren't depressed but see no sense in living a life of irreversible economic misery.


The instinct to live is powerful and basic. In order for a person to want to commit suicide just because he/she is poor, there would have to be mental illness involved. Perhaps you should think about why you identify personally with such a position?


You fail to understand. Not just poor.

I'm talking about no money, no prospects for a job, no ability to get SSI, no food, not enough money to afford college and/or a place to stay..

If someone commits suicide in order to avoid a life of irreversible and miserable conditions, they're mentally ill?

I'd like to know what your circumstances are. Middle class perhaps? Wouldn't surprise me.


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Taverson
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21 Oct 2012, 11:09 am

again_with_this wrote:
Taverson wrote:
I personally view suicide as something that should be a choice. I don't think it should be made lightly, but I think it should be an option for those who have no reason left to live - no chance to have any kind of life.


I think it depends on how you define "no reason left to live" and "no chance to have any kind of life."

Brain dead, in a coma, physically incapacitated, in never ending physical pain are, to me, all legitimate excuses to end one's life. In fact, most of these people are only alive due to modern medicine/technology and would have died naturally anyway. So in those cases, I fully understand the right to die. Ironically, most of those people are actually incapable of committing suicide, and that's where questions of euthanasia come in.

Now, people who actually do kill themselves, or attempt it, often feel they have "no reason left to live," but it seems it's often based on self-pity. There are suicide attempt survivors who later say they were glad they failed. So if it's a question of emotion and mental state, are these people in their "right mind," and therefore even capable of determining whether their excuses for suicide are valid?

And is it ethical to allow people not in their right mind to make such a major decision?


I've defined what I mean by no chance of any kind of life in economic reasons.

I bolded part of your post that I wish everyone including pesky Christians knew.

As for self pity, if I kill myself, it will have to be with no other options in front of me. As in unable to get a job that can support me, unable to further an education, unable to break out of the cycle that I've found myself in for almost three years: no home, no job, and no prospects for a better future (which I at least have had one for the past three years therefore preventing any need for suicide)

I still hold on because I'm young and I actually have a somewhat risky chance to make a life out of what I have.

But if I ever had nothing to make a life out of and no options to gain the ability to do so...

It's not a mental illness. It's a thought and decision I have made, depression-free mind you, that if life gets impossible to make better, TRULY impossible.. then I will walk that path.

It's insulting to have so many people tell you "You're ill." or some variation that casts doubt on your ability to think and make decisions.


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