The menace of religious schools (Richard Dawkins).

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Jono
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21 Oct 2012, 9:14 pm

Of course, religious schools aren't much of a problem when children still learn to think critically. However, they become a problem when the faith they're being indoctrinated into interferes with their critical thought, such as being indoctrinated into creationism over being taught evolution in a science classroom. Richard Dawkins made a documentary about this issue with religious schools in the UK. There they are called faith schools. Here's the documentary:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE7JJKSc-lI[/youtube]



Tequila
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21 Oct 2012, 9:25 pm

Just a quick note - this video won't show in the UK.

If you want to watch it, you'll have to click here.



mds_02
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21 Oct 2012, 10:50 pm

Hell, he should supporting them. Having attended religious schools myself, I've seen firsthand that there is no quicker way to get a child to abandon their faith than by sending them to one.


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Fnord
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21 Oct 2012, 11:04 pm

Another menace that private religious schools represent is not just that they are diploma mills, but that they may be tax-exempt diploma mills.


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21 Oct 2012, 11:49 pm

Fnord wrote:
Another menace that private religious schools represent is not just that they are diploma mills, but that they may be tax-exempt diploma mills.


Public schools are diploma mills. Not sure where you are from but private/Catholic schools are much better than public schools in the US, and top students will go there even if they are Jewish or not religious at all.


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Fnord
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22 Oct 2012, 12:03 am

blackelk wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Another menace that private religious schools represent is not just that they are diploma mills, but that they may be tax-exempt diploma mills.
Public schools are diploma mills. Not sure where you are from but private/Catholic schools are much better than public schools in the US, and top students will go there even if they are Jewish or not religious at all.

They still go through RCC Indoctrination ... a waste of time, I think.


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DerStadtschutz
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22 Oct 2012, 1:03 am

Jono wrote:
Of course, religious schools aren't much of a problem when children still learn to think critically. However, they become a problem when the faith they're being indoctrinated into interferes with their critical thought, such as being indoctrinated into creationism over being taught evolution in a science classroom. Richard Dawkins made a documentary about this issue with religious schools in the UK. There they are called faith schools. Here's the documentary:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE7JJKSc-lI[/youtube]


I'd just like to point out that the public school system doesn't teach children to think critically either. Also, while public schools might not necessarily indoctrinate kids with religious things, they sure as hell try to indoctrinate them into always trusting authority figures, never questioning s**t, and always shutting up, doing what you're told, going to work, and keeping your mouth shut. Beyond that, it's about teaching you basic skills you need to be able to go be a slave to some corporate master.



Jacoby
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22 Oct 2012, 1:25 am

Can you summarize the video, it's pretty long.

But yea, private religious schools in the US are by far a superior place to learn than 99% of public schools in this country.

I went to a public school in the inner city and it didn't prepare me for much more than but a life in prison so I'm interested in hearing the argument against religious schools, homeschooling, or private schools in general other than they might teach the kids stuff you don't like.



mds_02
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22 Oct 2012, 2:15 am

Jacoby wrote:
I'm interested in hearing the argument against religious schools, homeschooling, or private schools in general other than they might teach the kids stuff you don't like.


Bear in mind we're talking about schools here. If we can't criticize what they teach, there's not much left to talk about.


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ruveyn
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22 Oct 2012, 5:49 am

Fnord wrote:
Another menace that private religious schools represent is not just that they are diploma mills, but that they may be tax-exempt diploma mills.


Whereas public schools are tax-funded diploma mills.

Public schools are run on tax loot extracted from the citizens.

Private schools are run on tuition voluntarily paid by the students or parents of the students.

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Jono
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22 Oct 2012, 9:19 am

Jacoby wrote:
Can you summarize the video, it's pretty long.

But yea, private religious schools in the US are by far a superior place to learn than 99% of public schools in this country.

I went to a public school in the inner city and it didn't prepare me for much more than but a life in prison so I'm interested in hearing the argument against religious schools, homeschooling, or private schools in general other than they might teach the kids stuff you don't like.


If the school teaches something that is blatantly false, such as creationism in a science classroom, which by the way isn't science, then the education it provides is pathetic.

I don't generally mind homeschooling. The only problem is that many parents homeschool their children because they've already been indoctrinated into creationism and don't understand what evolution is.



Jono
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22 Oct 2012, 9:23 am

ruveyn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Another menace that private religious schools represent is not just that they are diploma mills, but that they may be tax-exempt diploma mills.


Whereas public schools are tax-funded diploma mills.

Public schools are run on tax loot extracted from the citizens.

Private schools are run on tuition voluntarily paid by the students or parents of the students.

ruveyn


whether they are public or private, I'd be more concerned that the kids aren't getting a decent education. I'm especially against religious dogma and biblical literalism getting in the way of a decent science education.

By the way, the faith schools that Dawkins is talking are publicly funded.



Tequila
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22 Oct 2012, 9:33 am

mds_02 wrote:
Hell, he should supporting them. Having attended religious schools myself, I've seen firsthand that there is no quicker way to get a child to abandon their faith than by sending them to one.


This isn't the case in England. The state pays for a lot of faith schools, and they don't actually have any say in what the religious education side of the curriculum is and they can refuse or accept pupils on the religious affiliation of their parents, and can demand various favours from their parents too (as was the case with the Catholic priest). So, while they (allegedly) teach the full national curriculum (which is monitored), the religious parts of it aren't, and they can use their position to elevate their "religious education" to many hours a week. They do have inspections, but these inspectorates are their own "independent" religious bodies. not the state or a genuinely impartial outside body. This is across all religions - Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam and so on.

Frankly, I think we should get the state out of religious indoctrination. It's divisive and unhelpful. A more-or-less secular society that reflects our Christian cultural heritage is the best way to go.



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22 Oct 2012, 11:30 am

I think it is important to distinguish between those religious schools that support science and those that do not. Evangelical, Haredi and mainstream Islamic schools (the latter is a serious problem in Denmark) are probably not the best choice if you want your child to be a successful physicist, doctor or biologist.

On the other hand, it is my opinion that non-orthodox Judaism, Ba'hai or Jainism puts a much higher emphasis on science-based education (perhaps even higher than many secular schools). Of course, these 3 religions are all very small compared to Christianity and Islam.

And then there is the Nirvana fallacy: A religious private school may be bad, but if the public school system is completely defunct (my guess is that some locations in the US meet this criteria), it may still be the better choice. Evolution, for instance, is a fairly simple concept, so those subjected to the Evangelical Scourge should be able to catch up eventually... Addendum: Assuming that they want to...



ruveyn
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22 Oct 2012, 11:43 am

Jono wrote:

By the way, the faith schools that Dawkins is talking are publicly funded.


They should not be publicly funded. In the U.S. parochial schools are not funded out of the property tax, since churches are exempt from the property tax.

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Tequila
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22 Oct 2012, 12:33 pm

GGPViper wrote:
I think it is important to distinguish between those religious schools that support science and those that do not. Evangelical, Haredi and mainstream Islamic schools (the latter is a serious problem in Denmark) are probably not the best choice if you want your child to be a successful physicist, doctor or biologist.


Yup - this is a serious problem in Britain too, considering that the Islamic community is growing at about ten times the rate of the rest of the population. We're walking into a demographic timebomb here, no doubt about it. It's the non-monitored nature of religious education in state-funded religious schools that is the worry.

I was raised in a Church of England school. The religious indoctrination wasn't strong, but sitting in church bored the absolute piss out of me as a youngster. I don't think it helped when I actually asked a priest why I should believe in God when I was very young. As I remember, he really couldn't answer me.