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Jacoby
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05 Nov 2012, 10:06 am

It's important understand their motivations and the environment that created them. The greatest evils are usually committed with a righteous cause.



marshall
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05 Nov 2012, 10:19 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
it is a left wing impulse to say that morality is all relative and draw moral equivalents.... they have their suicide bombers, we have our abortion clinic bombers, its all relative, we shouldn't judge. The terrorists are weak, and fighting the powers that be, and the Left also identify's with that as well. There is no objective morality, the weak, the poor, the powerless are to be admired and the strong, the rich, and the powerful criticized. That is how the left everywhere divide the world. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter is never said about the US military. The left never shrug at the negative accusations thrown at our military, and use that line. So for them, it is only true about terrorists, and secondly, those terrorists are freedom fighters. The question they do love to ask is "What did we do to deserve this?" It is an interesting question, mainly because I have yet to understand the motivations behind it. If anyone knows, feel free to enlighten me.

The right's "my country right or wrong" attitude looks a lot like moral relativism. Only the right doesn't see their own hypocrisy. The right must be certain in it's absolute moral righteousness because to ask questions is to portray weakness. Moral uncertainty is the enemy of the right. It is safer to assume your country only acts for noble causes and be wrong than to have less than 100% moral clarity and portray vulnerability. The right operates on the principles of fear, loyalty, and blind deference to those they see as their protectors. These are the same moral codes street gangs operate on. Loyalty to the home team trumps everything else.

Also, to the right, trying to understand the psychological motives of the enemy is too dangerous because it threatens moral clarity. Nevermind that understanding the motives of terrorists might help us better combat them on the ideological front. Nope, it's better to just assume they are cartoonish simple minded monsters with no motive other than pure evil. Then we can justify bombing them into the stone age, civilian casualties be damned.



AspieOtaku
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05 Nov 2012, 2:02 pm

I know I might seem morbid but to me all a Jihadists is in my eyes is basicly this [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSrOmnysW2g[/youtube]only a human bobomb.


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05 Nov 2012, 2:11 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
I know I might seem morbid


No way 8O. You caught everyone *completely* by surprise with that statement.



blackelk
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05 Nov 2012, 2:17 pm

marshall wrote:
blackelk wrote:
Many of them are fighting injustice but they target innocent people so I don't feel sympathy for them. I can somewhat understand the motivation and helplessness that leads them to it though.

One could make the argument they are the truest soldiers. They are fighting for what they believe in. A deep belief. Most soldiers of a nation are fighting for paycheck or some kind of blind loyalty. They are going to war simply because they were ordered to, they don't have a deep connection to the cause. They are basically mercenaries. A jihadist fights for his own conscience.


People can be 100% sincere in their belief that they are fighting for a just and noble cause and still be do great evil. Take abortion clinic bombers for instance. If they truly believe killing a human embryo is comparable to murdering a living human being I can see how they might be enraged to the point they could justify murdering doctors in retaliation. Timothy McVeigh also had legitimate reason to feel outrage towards the federal government considering how badly they screwed up in the Waco situation.


Never said they couldn't be evil, or weren't evil. I just respect people more who fight for their own convictions, rather than somebody else's.


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MarketAndChurch
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05 Nov 2012, 4:56 pm

marshall wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
it is a left wing impulse to say that morality is all relative and draw moral equivalents.... they have their suicide bombers, we have our abortion clinic bombers, its all relative, we shouldn't judge. The terrorists are weak, and fighting the powers that be, and the Left also identify's with that as well. There is no objective morality, the weak, the poor, the powerless are to be admired and the strong, the rich, and the powerful criticized. That is how the left everywhere divide the world. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter is never said about the US military. The left never shrug at the negative accusations thrown at our military, and use that line. So for them, it is only true about terrorists, and secondly, those terrorists are freedom fighters. The question they do love to ask is "What did we do to deserve this?" It is an interesting question, mainly because I have yet to understand the motivations behind it. If anyone knows, feel free to enlighten me.


The right's "my country right or wrong" attitude looks a lot like moral relativism. Only the right doesn't see their own hypocrisy. The right must be certain in it's absolute moral righteousness because to ask questions is to portray weakness. Moral uncertainty is the enemy of the right. It is safer to assume your country only acts for noble causes and be wrong than to have less than 100% moral clarity and portray vulnerability. The right operates on the principles of fear, loyalty, and blind deference to those they see as their protectors. These are the same moral codes street gangs operate on. Loyalty to the home team trumps everything else.

Also, to the right, trying to understand the psychological motives of the enemy is too dangerous because it threatens moral clarity. Nevermind that understanding the motives of terrorists might help us better combat them on the ideological front. Nope, it's better to just assume they are cartoonish simple minded monsters with no motive other than pure evil. Then we can justify bombing them into the stone age, civilian casualties be damned.


But you see, that's where you have to ask whether claims are true or not, and debate them. I think Vietnam was moral. South Korea was moral. WW2 was moral. The Cold War was moral. Kosovo was moral. Desert Storm was moral. The Iraq war was moral. And if we disagree, then we can debate them. When the right says those actions are moral, it is not because they fear moral uncertainty or do not want to be portrayed as weak on those issues. It is because they actually believe in those positions, and you should not excuse that just because you cannot possibly imagine someone taking those positions. That is the Left's problem: Not taking the Right seriously. They think someone either has to be misinformed, stupid, or has bad intentions to hold the positions that the Right does, thus barring the Left-winger from taking someone who holds those positions in a serious light.

Loyalty is a normal social demand of any human movement. Where does any left wing group break from Leftism's Race, Gender, and Class trinity? When they do, they are corrected by the left as an immoral movement, and distance themselves from it.

On the right, we see you bombing a bunch of people, inciting hateful policies and behaviors against women, minorities, gays, and instituting a theocratic state that is hostile to personal freedom, and we don't care what you think, because we could give 2-sh**'s about intentions. The road to hell has been paved by good intentions, so it is something we cannot preoccupy ourselves with. When you behave an indecent manner, especially by killing the innocent, you may have had the most beautiful intentions, as Mao had to collectivize proletariat forces for a better future, but none of it matters in the final analysis if it does not produce good. We ask what does good... you ask what sounds good, what feels good, what means good. The questions we ask are determined by our values, and we have completely different values.


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05 Nov 2012, 5:33 pm

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In my opinion, anyone who sympathizes with jihadists and pedophiles may as well be one of them.


Having sympathy for someone isn't the same as sympathizing with them.

I have some sympathy for ALL the ignorant, brain-washed teenage soldiers of the world.



ruveyn
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05 Nov 2012, 5:34 pm

Not a bit

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05 Nov 2012, 7:15 pm

GGPViper wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
I know I might seem morbid


No way 8O. You caught everyone *completely* by surprise with that statement.
sarcasm I suppose if so..then well played.


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05 Nov 2012, 7:15 pm

Don't they think they are going to have dozens of virgins and plenty of hash after they die?
Seems like some of the young men may be brainwashed into thinking they are going to have a bang up good time in that afterlife.Anyway Islam is suppose to be about peace so I don't think they can even be considered real Muslims.The Sufis are peaceful,I don't think Rumi expected anyone to fly a plane into a building killing innocents.no one who kills innocent victims has my sympathy.



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05 Nov 2012, 7:49 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Don't they think they are going to have dozens of virgins and plenty of hash after they die?
Seems like some of the young men may be brainwashed into thinking they are going to have a bang up good time in that afterlife.Anyway Islam is suppose to be about peace so I don't think they can even be considered real Muslims.The Sufis are peaceful,I don't think Rumi expected anyone to fly a plane into a building killing innocents.no one who kills innocent victims has my sympathy.


Read the Quran sometime, a pretty good argument can be made that it really isn't a religion of peace.



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05 Nov 2012, 8:06 pm

I have read it ,I have a copy.But the Bible isn't nonviolent either,those old prophets were fond of smiteing cultures they didn't like,lots of hellfire,brimstone,stoning,turning people into salt pillars,and Elijah had bears devour a couple of kids for making fun of his baldness.The crusades werent exactly peaceful either,wasn't Pope Innocent one of the instigators?
The real terrorists wear suits and work on Wall street,plus fanatical fundamentalists of ALL religions.



Inuyasha
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05 Nov 2012, 8:14 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I have read it ,I have a copy.But the Bible isn't nonviolent either,those old prophets were fond of smiteing cultures they didn't like,lots of hellfire,brimstone,stoning,turning people into salt pillars,and Elijah had bears devour a couple of kids for making fun of his baldness.The crusades werent exactly peaceful either,wasn't Pope Innocent one of the instigators?
The real terrorists wear suits and work on Wall street,plus fanatical fundamentalists of ALL religions.


The Bible reads more like a historical text though, and thus is recording events. It isn't a strict rulebook like the Quran, instead it mostly records past events like a modern history book.



Misslizard
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05 Nov 2012, 8:52 pm

Leviticus and Deuteronomy have lots of laws and rules to follow,I'm sure I would have been taken to the edge of the village and stoned to death,of course this could also happen if I was in an area controlled by the Taliban.



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06 Nov 2012, 2:44 am

I am going to answer my own question. Do Jihadists deserve our sympathy?[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14[/youtube]There ya go. :D


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06 Nov 2012, 6:57 pm

What is a jihadist?
What is sympathy?

A terrorist ( by definition someone who targets civilians) gets caught-then he should get due process. If convicted he should be punished. Doesnt matter what his cause was.

If they get convicted should they be punished less severely than say a mass murderer like Holmes ( the colorado shooter). Probably not.

Bin Ladin ofcourse, didnt get due process.

But sometimes you have to bend the rules with some individuals.