Is this the forum are there any Christians

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Some people take their religion too seriously.

Christians are Christians by faith alone; everyone else has their religion.

no, they are lukewarm and for many it would be better had they never been born.

now that being said, there are sheep and then there are shepherds.
if you are smarter than the average bear, you're a shepherd, and you need to make damn sure you know what you're saying before you say it.

Lukewarm ... religious ...

Either way, they're lost.

No... I don't think so, what it is is an honest meaningful acknowledgment of the dangers of extremism, even on our side. The same is true for the Democrats.

It is also a warning to conservatives not to forget that libertarianism on its own can be heartless. An idea is never good on its own, it must affirm and serve values higher then it.

EJ Dionne wrote that piece to make a case for community, but he's meaning it in the national sense where you are not just helping the person down the road with your charity, but with your taxes and income redistribution, we can help people we don't know who may be in another city or state. That is a liberal's sense of community, one I slightly subscribe to but on a different level, and has many issues in its attempt to frame that as a form of meaningful "community"...

Which is what I sort of think Ron Paul was arguing about the texting while driving ban. People will only feel accountable to the state(and more then likely continue to text more discreetly), not those within their communities who they endanger while driving distracted. The ban infantilizes people, and is just another ban for revenue collectors to pursuit.

So wisdom and ethics is the limiting principle to liberty. Very nice. I am curious though to how charitable Libertarians are, financially. I know a good many, they are great communitarians, indispensable to those in need in their time and help, but as far as money is concerned, where do libertarians stand as a group?

I have a friend in my church who's a libertarian. As he's inspired by Christianity, he views the Republican philosophy as corporatist and not legitimately Christian. As a liberal, I see how he and I have much in common.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Unconditional Love
I think the only human beings who deserve unconditional love are those below the age of 2. Even if you love your children unconditionally in the emotional sense(what parent doesn't?), you have to show them that certain behaviors like bullying another kid or cheating his way through school do hurt you, and that you will behaviorally withdraw love to make the point (in addition to maybe grounding him or some other form of punishment.) Which I am highly certain you agree, but I don't fully know your position, or if you have kids and the stipulations you may or may not have, emotionally/behaviorally, in showing them unconditional love.


Defining Love
You are absolutely right about trying to define love... its also true for happiness, no definition will ever be satisfactory or do it justice, but you know the feeling, and thats all that matters.


Does The Heart Matter?
How does this higher form of love deal with issues of justice? And is the heart a great source of ethics? I only ask because I know too many christians who do hold your view. And they are great people in the sense that they are decent and nice, but they've abandoned standards because they feel their heart is a better guide to morality, and they are not always tithing. I'm sure the less well off would prefer your 10% to your emotional unavailability. And even when one is emotionally available, it is so easy to rationalize anything. On top of that, just being good and decent to others can make someone feel good enough where giving the occasional quarter to the homeless person is enough to make them feel charitable, even if you show them on a spreadsheet that their giving to those less well-off was less then 50 dollars in one year.

I tithe 10% because God said so. That's it. Tithing in Judaism is "Justice." I have no emotional connection to the act, I know it betters the life of someone else and I need no more then that, no compliments, no thank you's. I don't even have "love" for who I give money to. None. What makes me feel love with regards to charity is how effed up this world would be if we all didn't give to those who are in worse off positions then ourselves. Some will judge my intentions and my heart, but I guess that's just a theological difference. Judaism is a behavioral religion. Behavior, is more important then the intentions of the heart. "Even if your heart isn't in it, God says so, so do it!" is more elevating to me, personally.

Maybe.
I'm only bringing these up because they are questions and issues I have had that I've not fully figured out. I don't expect you to know, disagree, or agree, I have a lifetime to figure it out. But if you or anyone else have feedback, that would be great.

And there's some truth to that.

On a side note, the methodist church I used to attend is an awesome liberal congregation. They have a very moving pastor who knows just how to get to the heart of the matter while challenging your comfort zone in a way that promotes personal growth. Sometimes he gets political but very often he'll have a way of illustrating his points without telling you what to think... he lets you draw your own conclusions on how to react or address the issues he's bringing up.

But anyways I recently told a group of folks who my parents were very close with to check the congregation out. They are hardcore conservatives, Fox-News junkies, but great loving right-wing social conservatives. They do stick out with a Romney/Ryan sticker on their car, the only one in the entire parking lot, but the congregation doesn't see them as conservatives, and if there's an occasional political overtone in a worship service, the message speaks to anyone of any walk of life, and that's how it should be. They love it there.

I have been to many synagogues and churches where they were too political, and I absolutely hate it, whether its far right or far left. I've done volunteer work with various conservative and liberal congregations, and while they'll construct exagerations about the other... get to know them personally and you'll be very often be surprised by their politics. Which is humbling.

I belong to the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. My wife and I are probably the most liberal members of our congregation, but most people belonging to our church are conservatives with a conscience - which I'm sad to say is itself an oddity today.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

If you note Burke's conclusion-- "Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without."

O.G. Libertarians saw freedom as the right to control one's self. I think Burke's position would be that if the people lack the moral fibre to control themselves (here, refrain from texting) they have no right to freedom and should be subject to a law.

Of course the ideal would be to develop moral restraint via churches and other moral/ethical institutions... And then do the right thing, simply because it is the right thing to do.





Hmm, I'm not sure about that. I have read studies that say poor/moderate income people actually give more proportionally than higher income people due mainly to enhanced empathy.

From personal experience-- Back when I was an automation tech making lots and lots of money, I gave very little of my time or money and didn't really think about poor people at all.

After becoming (voluntarily) a poor college student/low wage worker, I give much more money and time to my community. I've also changed majors from History, to tech-education, to Social Work. Living and working with poor/working class/minorities has had a huge impact on my world view and values.

With any works based religion..of which Roman Catholicism is perhaps the largest group.. a person will always wonder about their salvation. The Gospel of Christ is not based on any type of good or bad things we might do..rituals and dogmas of various man-made religions but rather a Relationship with Jesus Christ Himself. Its wonderful. Try it sometime. Leave out the middlemen priests saints and other hocus pocus. Its much better. Once the Relationship is established "nobody" can pluck you out of His Hand..not even you. You can chill out and quit worrying. He will teach you how to act right and do good works.

Yes, but as Martin Luther had once written: "By faith alone, but faith is never alone." Meaning, for faith to truly be real, it has to produce works.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Catholicism isn't works-based. Catholics do a lot of works, but it is still based on faith being the path to salvation - as is pretty much all of Christianity.

The only form of Christianity that is arguably works-based is the Society of Friends outside the Conservative branch (liberal Quakers).

That is the Poison Pill bequeathed to Christians by that self hating Jew, Saul of Tarsus.

ruveyn

It did place the religion in antagonism to reason.

You have a gift for understatement.

ruveyn