Was your great (several times) grandfather a furry ape?

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ruveyn
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11 Nov 2012, 5:37 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.

In order for all of humanity to be descended from two individuals who existed just before the start of recorded history, we would need a rate of mutation much higher than the actual figure. Also world population growth in that first 100 years or so of pre-history would have to be much higher than the first years of history, despite conditions not being much different.

Not sharing common descent with other animals would also go against a large body of evidence. Examples:

1) The way of DNA is used as a code is identical to that of most lifeforms. There is no reason why that should be the case, except the same code being stumbled upon.
2) Vestigal organs- for example, the short hairs that cover most of the human body, and stand on end when we are cold. These serve no purpose in humans, but are vital for most mammals in keeping them warm.
3) Humans have one pair of chromosomes fewer than the other great apes. Chromosomes have "ends" called teleomeres. Our chromosome #2 has teleomeres in the middle as well as at each end, indicating it is the result of two chromosomes fusing. Other markers show us that these are two chimp chromosomes that have fused.
4) Our genes and the genes of other animals are often identical. There's no need for them to be identical, because many changes would still result in the same protein being formed.


Adam and Eve is a story that bronze age dudes who did not know a thing about genetics could live with. It is a myth.

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11 Nov 2012, 5:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Go back far enough and all life originated in bubbling mineral filled mode or lukewarm pools of highly mineralized water.

ruveyn


You mean we all emerged from Perrier Water?



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11 Nov 2012, 5:45 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.


Adam and Eve is a myth, no different from Greek, Egyptian or Babylonian creation myths.



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11 Nov 2012, 6:36 pm

From what can be infered from the fossil record (and that is a lot more than most people who have no knowledge of anatomy think), the genus homo lost the fur some 2 million years ago. Perhaps earlier than that. Hominids lost fur for a reason. If there was no survival advantage, it wouldn't have happened.

Homo Erectus had the anatomical structure consistant with an endurance runner. Just like our anatomy and that of Homo Neandertalensis. Big gluteus maximus (that's the butt muscle), feet built as shock absorbers, torso and shoulders that can rotate from side to side, spine and head balanced in such a way that we don't fall flat on our face when we run and most importantly: sweat glands to cool us down. A thick fur would get in the way with that.

Now why would hominids evolve into furless endurance runners? Here's one possible intriguing answer.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o[/youtube]



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11 Nov 2012, 6:39 pm

ruveyn wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.
when did adam and eve live. How long ago? ruveyn

Allegedly, 6016 years ago, according to Ussher.


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Aldran
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11 Nov 2012, 6:49 pm

I am unhappy, though satisfied, to admit that my great (Though many thousand times removed) grandfather, was an ape.

AronRa on Youtube gives a very good airing of this subject. Agree with him, disagree with him, he says ALOT of interesting things, AND backs it up with facts easily found in many many places....

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL ... ature=plcp

First one to watch can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJX68EL ... plpp_video

(Links posted without even attempting to inquire as to permissions, Im sure all rights are reserved by all parties involved, Youtube, AronRa, etc etc.)

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11 Nov 2012, 7:08 pm

Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.
when did adam and eve live. How long ago? ruveyn

Allegedly, 6016 years ago, according to Ussher.


ah... so the "very first" humans came LONG after neanderthal AND long after cro magnon had already been here... Sounds to me like god ripped off nature when he made adam and eve. God is a plagiarist. Neanderthals existed like 40,000 years ago and so did cro magnon.



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11 Nov 2012, 7:25 pm

DerStadtschutz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.
when did adam and eve live. How long ago? ruveyn

Allegedly, 6016 years ago, according to Ussher.


ah... so the "very first" humans came LONG after neanderthal AND long after cro magnon had already been here... Sounds to me like god ripped off nature when he made adam and eve. God is a plagiarist. Neanderthals existed like 40,000 years ago and so did cro magnon.


Not only that but they appear to have come 4000 years after the agricultural revolution, when human civilization started. Hmm, human civilization 4000 years older than humans? How does THAT work?



ruveyn
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11 Nov 2012, 7:37 pm

Fnord wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.
when did adam and eve live. How long ago? ruveyn

Allegedly, 6016 years ago, according to Ussher.


Hominids go back millions of years. Does that mean there were intelligent hominids prior to A and E? Obviously those early hominids were not made of mud.

ruveyn.



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11 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

When you watch the way apes use their hands you can see how we would have descended from them.
The Adam and eve story is just that a story there would have been a lot of incest if that was true. :roll:
I think everthing evolved over time, I remember watching a documentry where they showed a seabird and they said eventually it will evolve to a penguin.



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11 Nov 2012, 9:14 pm

For the record, current evolutionary theory states that humans and apes have a common ancestor that was neither human nor ape, but that had primitive characteristics of both.

Thus, we did not descend from apes; we descended along with apes from a common ancestor species.


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Fnord
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11 Nov 2012, 9:16 pm

DerStadtschutz wrote:
ah... so the "very first" humans came LONG after neanderthal AND long after cro magnon had already been here... Sounds to me like god ripped off nature when he made adam and eve. God is a plagiarist. Neanderthals existed like 40,000 years ago and so did cro magnon.

Jono wrote:
Not only that but they appear to have come 4000 years after the agricultural revolution, when human civilization started. Hmm, human civilization 4000 years older than humans? How does THAT work?

ruveyn wrote:
Hominids go back millions of years. Does that mean there were intelligent hominids prior to A and E? Obviously those early hominids were not made of mud. ruveyn.

Obviously, Reverend Ussher's math was at least a few digits off.


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echinopsis
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11 Nov 2012, 10:23 pm

if we were all descendants of adam and eve it stands to reason that we wouldnt have that much healthy variance in our gene pool and that incest wouldnt strike us as such an icky idea. i dont know about you but im pretty content with being the primate that i am.



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11 Nov 2012, 10:52 pm

Jitro wrote:
Do you believe so?
Hey it is thread again.

I am an ape.

Also, all human beings have hair just about everywhere in the body where there is skin, with some few exceptions (that are actually shared with other great apes). What varies across different parts of the body is the thickness and length of the hairs. A known genetic condition actually makes the thickness of the person's "invisible" hair similar to that of gorillas. Those poor people look like werewolves and have to constantly shave.


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11 Nov 2012, 11:35 pm

That pre ape thing was a long time ago. Getting down to recent time, yes, there was a new branch started, by the gods. 6016 sounds about right.

The sons of god looked upon the daughters of man and found they were fair.

Herodotus was told by Salon that the Egyptian priests had told him the gods came from the west 13,500 years before his time, 16,000 to us. Herodotus wrote his history in 543bce.

At the time neanderthal, erectus, cro magnon, were way old history, from before the flood.

While only Atlantis knew the secret of Oracalium, some of the gods also used it. Ora=Gold, Calium=Copper so golden copper, which is brass or bronze.

The Human Genome Project says grains, and domestic animals were developed 35,000 years ago.

The flood pushed a lot of old stone age people up out of the basins, Red Sea, Persian Gulf, and according to the Sumarians, they knew not houses, clothing, grain, lived hand to mouth and when they died, were not buried.

There are no proto Sumarians, they show up with irrigated grain farming, along the rivers above the Persian Gulf, with Art. Music, a complex language, a developed mathematics, and it seems some form of writing.

The old stone age people come and eat the grain out of the field, so they are fed bread, and taught the way of the hoe. Everything was great in the garden for a long time, until we get to the sons of god part, which produces some who start asking questions, they sought the knowledge of good and evil, so they would be like gods.

Half breeds get no respect, they were driven from the garden, to survive on their own. The sons of god were given the snake role, and a strong talking to. Guards were posted with flaming swords.

This group undergos some rapid evolution, survives, and becomes a new people, part man, part god.

Some saw it as helping them, others saw it as giving chimps AK-47s.

And god said to Cain, where is your brother? Cain would have said I do not know if the body had been laying there, head bashed in with the bloody hoe in his hand. For all the gods knew, they did not know war, the old stone age people never forgot. Murder was part of their culture.

Later, they did improve, tried to live like the gods, with rules, but genetics do not change. Raised, taught, given better jobs, as soon as they got the spears they rose up and killed the gods, claimed they were now the gods, and starved because they could not keep the grain farming going. For forty years they were ignored till all of that generation was dead, and the next begged the gods to return, and bring cargo.

The gods did, and for a hundred years the fields produced, everyone ate bread every day, and cucumbers, and onions, then one night they rose up and slaughtered the gods. Again in the wilderness, again the next generation begging the gods to return, and the gods refused.

The next group that came had weapons of iron, chariots, and there wes no making them better, herded like the animals they were they were put to work in the fields, under armed guards. They were model prisoners. Language was reduced to work orders. As prisoners, slaves, and subjects they did quite well.

They could learn, the problem was they used knowledge for paleolithic ideas, like lets kill everyone, then something. They were not sure what came next, but killing everyone sounded cool. Their idea of the earth was about as far as they could see.

Kill everyone you see, the whole earth becomes yours. They never understood where those men with iron weapons, horses, chariots, came from. The overseeing of the slaves was sub contracted.

As was mentioned in several other texts, the Egyptians told Solon the Greeks had no history, they were new men created by the gods, making their first passage around. What they meant was other people had been around for over 26,000 years, the procession of the pole star, and knew a thing or two the Greeks did not.

This whole mess starts the Age of War, which has been continous since then. Killing people still seems cool. It has been going on for 3,000 years, and in 23,000 more when they make the first time around, they may quit. Maybe the UN could send them a strongly worded note.

I had this same conversation with an educated man from Belize, we were discussing Mexicans. They grow up in a rural village where what Spanish spoken is third grade, they labor, and if shown a blueprint can make no sense of it, but can build a house. Measurement is beyond them, the best can do, eight inches and three marks. Most local language is indio, which is not spoken before strangers, which is everyone outside their village.

When they revolt, they slaughter millions, the 50,000 dead along the border makes the news, but a lot more have just vanished in all the villages. Drugs is just the new thing, and there is money in it, they would do it for free.

Cutting open 25,000 in a day, offering the still beating heart to the sun, then eating the bodies, was a festival five hundred years ago, now continued in private. There is a skull faced saint, death, and one group got caught recently making offerings, several ten year old boys, who they killed and ate. It is religion, and has survived unchanged. This is the same folks who are cutting your grass.

The Sumarians found their slaves were sneeking out at night, and sacrificing children to the Moon. The Moon was called Sin.

The gods might have been smart, but the carryover from the Paleolithic continued. The Aztec would have thought well of the American Civil War, lots of dead, but not understood why the women and old were not slaughtered, and the children eaten.

There is a tribe in the highlands of Nicaragua, they go into battle naked, bring only their weapons, fight at night, and eat anyone they run into. They have never lost. They also breed food plants and flowers. They developed tobacco. They produce some great poets.

We live like we pretend Mommie or god is watching, deny everything, but according to the news, still do it.

We pretend, but we are still apes.



ruveyn
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12 Nov 2012, 11:18 am

Inventor wrote:

We pretend, but we are still apes.


Primates is more exact. We have a lot in common with our ape-like ancestors but we possess the gift of gab and that is the main difference.

ruveyn