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ElfMan
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30 Mar 2005, 9:27 am

vetivert wrote:
ElfMan wrote:
And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure.


erm... sorry to be pedantic, but the phrase is "nip it in the bud" and not "butt". gave me a cracking good laugh first thing this morning, though - ta!


No offence taken. I love it when people point out to me how funny I am. Especially when I have missed it. Can I leave it as 'butt' can I, please?

ElfMan



Glenn
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30 Mar 2005, 9:37 am

ElfMan wrote:
vetivert wrote:
ElfMan wrote:
And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure.


erm... sorry to be pedantic, but the phrase is "nip it in the bud" and not "butt". gave me a cracking good laugh first thing this morning, though - ta!


No offence taken. I love it when people point out to me how funny I am. Especially when I have missed it. Can I leave it as 'butt' can I, please?

ElfMan


Oh, vetivert, do leave it! I love the image of butt being nipped ... much better than the original version!
Glenn



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30 Mar 2005, 10:27 am

This is simply amazing! This is a near mirror image of my family, quarreling with each other.

Catholicism had a huge hand in ripping apart my mother's side of the family. I can just state what I witness from the hardcore Catholics in my family. They seem cold, arrogant, judge people based on monetary wealth and things that they have. They put their faith in THINGS, statues, trinkets, bottles of water 'blessed' by the pope. I have attented some masses and it feels like the love has been let out of the air. The whole thing is very repetetition based and seems very unmeaningful.
Catholicism is not the oldest religion in the world yet they seem to be one of the most intollerant of others.

I believe that there is a strong force at work in the world today. Love and respect have been obscured by illusions of what people think is good. Lots of loose sexual practises and behaviour have become more accepted. Money crimes are punished harsher than murder and rape crimes. I don't know what the world is comming to but I stay positive in my belief that there is something watching everything and it is good. Religion intollerance and love for money kill more people on this earth than anything else.

On a side note:

Add an O in 'God' and you get 'Good'. addition = positive

Subtract a 'D' in 'Devil' and you get 'Evil' subtraction = negative

hmmm... interesting, anyone else ever notice that before?



thechadmaster
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30 Mar 2005, 11:10 am

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teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


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ElfMan
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30 Mar 2005, 7:58 pm

Ok I've been silent long enough. This may come out sounding like a rant because I have a lot of sore emotions when it comes to churches and 'christians'.
I grew up going to church every sunday. My dad who during the week would beat my mother and my sister up, would turn on his christian charm on a Sunday at church.
Which is not the Sabbath as defined by God himself by the way! God himself intructed us to keep the Sabbath day holy, but somehow once again some churches justify going against God when its convenient.
This makes me feel decieved.

I attended Sunday school where they tought me that Noah built an ark and he put 2 of each animal on board.
Here's what it actually says:- "Take with you SEVEN of every kind of CLEAN animal, a male and it's mate, and TWO of every kind of UNCLEAN animal, a male and it's mate, and also SEVEN of every kind of bird, male and female to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.
Genisis 7:2-3

So I feel decieved again.

And here's another thing that no christian has ever wanted to explain to me. :- "The son's of GOD saw that the daughters of MEN were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose."
Genisis 6:2

Sounds to me like the Sons of God were quite promiscous. Not forgetting that monogomus relationships were not heard of in those days.

"The Nephilim (Giants) were on the earth in those days - and also afterward - when the sons of GOD went to the daughters of MEN and had children by them. They were the hero's of old."
Genisis 6:4

So was there more than one race on earth in the beginning and only one is spoken of in the church? Yes. Why? It would answer so many of the insest questions that surround the story of Adam and Eve. The children of the son's of God were the Nephilim - the Giants. Son of God Daddy + Daughter of Man Mummy have baby - baby is a Giant. Could not get clearer.
My church only ever taught me about the human race and how God had made earth SPECIFICALLY for us. It never mentioned that our race began from the combination of TWO races, or maybe even more.

Decieved again.

I have hundreds of examples like this. And who are these hero's of old that get a mention. Could they be the hero's that so called myths are based on. I believe it could be so.

And how about the clay tablets that where found in Sumiria (spl?) that date back before the bible but have the same stories as the bible but with a few little differences such as names. How could this be so? They are very real.

And Gallilao. He was at deaths door many a time at the hands of the Catholics. Why? Because he told them things were different scientifically to what they wanted to believe which was based on nothing but inflated egos. It wasn't until way after his death that we began to grasp his ideas. This man was a great man who had his talents buried by the fears imposed on him by his church. He spent many years of his life laying low and keeping his mouth shut out of fear. This man probably had so much more to offer. Sad thing is he is not the only one.

There are so many ways in which the CHURCH has violated it's own credibilities. It brings it on itself with all it's contradictions and changing it's mind to suit whatever.

And My personal experiences with church just tops it off. When I was a teenager living on the streets, I would go to the church that I grew up in at night because they always had free supper. Everybody knew me. They knew my sercumstances and yet not one of them even offered me a meal. I was their scapegoat when ever anything was stolen or vadalised. I was exorcised of demons because I was just so evil apparently.

Dispite this I still spent 7 years as a devote christian. Now days I just shake my head at that.
My brother in law was a Lutheran Pastor. He has been so hurt by the system it's not funny. I won't get into what he has been put through as it is personal to him. I will say he has been treated Very Very WRONGLY!
My church like many more out there beleived that they were right and every other faith was wrong.

As far as I know God himself was the one who made different cultures with different religions that were to mis-understand each other back in the days of Babel. So it's his plan that there are so many faiths. He is more diverse than we will ever understand. His goal here was for us to understand each other but we have to work at it if we want that enough.

Did I mention that Moses had a stutter. And that Aaron was his spokesman. Never see that in the movies.

Oh and just last week my neihbours saw me stimming for the first time. Guess what they did. Before I knew what they were doing they prayed over me and asked jesus to cast the demons out. Gee thanks guys (NOT). They also warned me not to hang out with the guy across the road so much because he is scitzophrenic and demons love to jump around into different bodies. Well my scitzophrenic mate is one of the most down to earth honest and trusting guys I have met in a long time.

I told them I don't want to be hearing that BS again and not to pray any demons out of me!! !

Oh and my gay friends that I knew some years back. They went to church too. They were still figuring out their sexuality but they were living together in what seemed to others as a relationship. Male and female. Because they were living together the church made them get married and because they could not feel comfortable talking about their sexuallity they did just that. They were never meant to get married. It was the wrong thing for them and it set them back years as far as self discovery is concerned.

And my mum and her new husband of about 5 years now. They were living together for a few months before they got married. The church who my step-dad belonged to kicked him out. He had been a big part of this church helping with fundraisers and fianances-budgets. He was on call for any of the little old ladies to do handyman work for them. He was the guy who would drive around and pick up the little old ladies for church and all sorts.

I grew up a beleiver. The churches antics have made me a non-beleiver.
Go figure

ElfMan



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30 Mar 2005, 8:08 pm

Glenn, I thought you asked very interesting questions in your post.

Glenn wrote:
For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God?


I asked my Born-Again Christian friend the same type of question once. She told me that Mahatma Ghandi is burning in hell right now! She said it was because he wasn't 'saved', but according to her, all of the murderers on death row who are 'saved' go to heaven. The logic of organised religion makes no sense to me.

Glenn wrote:
Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?


Good point! I would like to add that a God who can condemn people to hell for an eternity is worse than every sinner in history combined. If that is indeed the case, and Christians are correct, I would rather spend an eternity in hell than in heaven in the presence of such a 'loving' God.

So, could somebody answer Glenn's questions because I would really like to know the answers too.



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30 Mar 2005, 8:47 pm

Bec wrote:
So, could somebody answer Glenn's questions because I would really like to know the answers too.


Of course they can't because there are no answers..... thousands of incredibly learned Christian scholars have spent 2000 years trying to come up with stuff to justify the evil machinations of their twisted faith, and the best any of them has ever managed to come up with is "God moves in mysterious ways" :roll: ...... In other words "OK, we can't justify or logically explain any of this utter crap we spout to you, but you'd still better just shut up, do as you're told and give us your money, or we'll set GOD onto you :evil:!"

The fact is you will never see any Christian offer any explanations as to why God is such a random, egomaniacal, vindictive, twisted little sod because there are none. You will only ever get "God moves in mysterious ways" or, God forbid, "I have faith, and that's all I need" :roll: as answers to any reasonable question from their bleached little minds....... :evil: Christianity can only survive by terrifying and brainwashing its victims into accepting rote-learnt, bite-sized little soundbites as stock answers to everything, and making sure that they'll never actually think about any of these responses, or consider why they are so logically moribund and incapable of offering even the meagerest splinter of an explanation for anything.....


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ElfMan
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30 Mar 2005, 8:50 pm

thechadmaster wrote:
Quote:
teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


Nor will the pope.

I told my catholic ex that even the pope farts and she got very upset with me. Is he not human? I actually quite like the pope of today. It's the system that puts itself between me and my relationship with god that I can't come to terms with. Why create a seperation between a person and their personal relationship with god? Control is my answer to that. Because as far as I know I am not seperate from god until someone tries to put themself between us with an EGO issue.

If you only listen to people who have died to save you that only leaves jesus in your book doesn't it and the people that represent him have proven century after century to be EGO inflated liars.

Have you had any dealings with faiths outside of your own chadmaster? Have you ever looked past the surface of what they have to offer? Or does all your knowledge come from what other people tell you?

Researching something and questioning and testing something does not define faith so it would be absolutely safe for you to do so without fear of hell.

I would believe based on what you tell me about following god's law or go to hell that all people who worship on a Sunday will not see the light of heaven either.

Did you celebrate Easter Chadmaster? The ceramony that was dedicated to the Babylonian Godess Ester long before Christ's time. Which was adjusted acordingly with the story of Christ to convert more no-beleivers.

I have directed my questions to you because you have shown yourself to be quite frank about wanting to convert us. I've been there and done that and have no desire to return to it. If you wish to voice so stronlgy what others need to beleive, you need to be prepared to hear why we wont be converted. You also seem to have quite a surface understanding of what it is you want us to believe in.

So far all it has been is a "My faith is right everything else is wrong and will go to hell" type of discussion.
I can't accept this when your reason's are because somebody said so. We are asking you to tell us why, not what will happen if we don't. Most of us have all heard the "Hell" threat many a times in our lives. Everything in our day and age is promoted by fear campains and I and many others just don't buy into that either.
All we are asking for is some substance to your definisions.

If you want people to know what is true for you the best example you can give is to 'BE' it, 'LIVE it. Words fall well short of any example you can give with them.
I don't want to sound like I am dissing you for your faith. I have respect for faith. I feel it is a sign of wanting to do the right thing, which is integrity.

ElfMan



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30 Mar 2005, 8:58 pm

ElfMan wrote:
It looks to me like you are playing Tafkash and Chadmaster off against each other. If your queeries are genuine how about some diplomicy?


Don't sweat it matey, its all well under control :wink: - It would take a rather more, shall we say, powerful debating force than Sarcastic_Name to ever be able to play me off against anybody..... :) The merest thought of me being capable of being manipulated by any of the foes I have yet encountered on these forums amuses me very greatly, to say the least :lol:

ElfMan wrote:
Did I mention that Moses had a stutter. And that Aaron was his spokesman. Never see that in the movies.


....and that he was born, lived his whole life and died in Africa, almost certainly making him black - don't forget that little overlooked Cecil B. DeMillism. :wink:


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30 Mar 2005, 8:59 pm

ElfMan wrote:
Did you celebrate Easter Chadmaster? The ceramony that was dedicated to the Babylonian Godess Ester long before Christ's time. Which was adjusted acordingly with the story of Christ to convert more no-beleivers.


Exactly! How about Christmas? The 25th of December was not actually Christ's birthday, the Church took the date from a pagan holiday! Also the use of Christmas trees and holly doesn't have a Christian origin either.



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30 Mar 2005, 9:13 pm

Seeing as no Christian has as yet seen fit to meet Glenn's challenge, allow me to do the honours: (/me attempts to simulate brain damage of being exposed to virulent Christian dogma for an entire lifetime by sticking a coat-hanger up /me's nose and waggling)

Glenn wrote:
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?


Because God moves in mysterious ways....

Glenn wrote:
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.


Because love of Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.....

Glenn wrote:
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?


True faith is all we need.....

Glenn wrote:
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?


Because the Pope says so.......


Sorry Glenn matey, as much as you and I both long for some Christian, any Christian, to at least try to give us some more worthwhile attempts at answers to these questions, the fact is those are the only answers they will ever give you, or are capable of giving you. The very core of their entire belief system would implode in a big squelchy mess if they even attempted to address these questions........ More to the point, they'd go to hell for it..... I think we may be expecting just a little too much from their fluffy little heads all things considered, sad to say......


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30 Mar 2005, 9:20 pm

Initially, yes. Long term, maybe not, probably not, if the person has enough nerve and courage to think deeply and confront unspeakables.

I was heavy duty extreme religious material (of various sorts) for most of my life. But I became very frustrated by the wishy-washiness of Christianity and religion in general. "Jesus LOVES you", "We just have to have faith!! !" and similar platitudes did absolutely nothing for me!

I am now happily agnostic. One can have very rigid, black and white ethics and be an athiest or agnostic. In fact, I think that being this way makes it a heckuvalot easier. I can examine my own thoughts about morality more objectively and logically than before,m when I had to go to a bible that was FULL of contradictions. (and please, please please, don't ask me for a list of contradictions....I'm not going to waste my time).



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30 Mar 2005, 9:43 pm

First off, you guys once again are treating Christians and Catholics as the same religion. Please don't insult me like that. *shiver* I don't have a pope. I know most historic religous movies have gross inaccuracies, but how is that relevant. Anyways, I'd like to say that you all are assuming every Christian or Catholic church is the same. Going on, regardless of what religion, some churches are good, some are bad, and they all have hypocrites.

Quote:
ElfMan wrote:
Did you celebrate Easter Chadmaster? The ceramony that was dedicated to the Babylonian Godess Ester long before Christ's time. Which was adjusted acordingly with the story of Christ to convert more no-beleivers.


I know that many religous holidays were originally paegan holidays. But replacing a paegan holiday with a Jesus holiday sounds like a smart way to spread a religion to me. It's just like how greeting card and chocolate companies invented Valentine's Day to make money. Christians and/or Catholics made holidays to sell religion. I don't see what's wrong with that.

As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


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30 Mar 2005, 10:13 pm

I am not classing catholics and christians as the same. They are very different. My church was methodist and totally against anything catholic. But they were totally against anything except their own ideals anyway. But if they converted a catholic, they would fluff around like a rooster on heat. What I do class as the same is western organized religion's inner core and motivation. I would say that the individual citizen's are an innocent if not nieve class to the over powered ego justifed systems they class themselves by.

Quote:
I know that many religous holidays were originally paegan holidays. But replacing a paegan holiday with a Jesus holiday sounds like a smart way to spread a religion to me. It's just like how greeting card and chocolate companies invented Valentine's Day to make money. Christians and/or Catholics made holidays to sell religion. I don't see what's wrong with that.


It's deceptive!! Just be honest with me, because when I figure out I have had the wool pulled over my eyes, I get cross. This is about getting numbers, not about giving truth. That's what I feel is wrong with it for me.

Uh...might be a good idea for you to look into Valentine's day history, it's got religious deception intertwined with it too. Nothing to do with greeting cards I'm afraid.

Can anyone help me explain why this stuff makes me feel decieved?

ElfMan



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31 Mar 2005, 12:06 am

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


Thank you. If you do ask your pastor (or other scholar) these questions, I hope you will let us know what he says, as I really would like to understand more even if I am not myself a member of your faith.
I would also be very grateful of course if anyone else here would give their responses. Scholar or not, it seems to me that anyone with very strong faith must have some insight into why they believe as they do, beyond blind obedience to authority; because surely "obedience" and "belief" are not at all the same thing!
On a lighter note, the discussion about all the unorthodox thinkers that fundamentalists (and others) think will go to hell reminds me of something that George Bernard Shaw said. I can't remember the quote exactly, but apparently GBS thought hell would be preferable to an eternity in heaven. "Heaven for climate", he said "....but Hell for society!"

Glenn



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31 Mar 2005, 12:20 am

Glenn wrote:
"Heaven for climate", he said "....but Hell for society!"


Amen! :lol: