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ElfMan
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31 Mar 2005, 10:09 pm

Glenn, I'm going to try and answer you questions from a christian point of view. :lol: I am willing to stand corrected

My questions are:-

Quote:
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?


God does not suffer from human emotions. Everything is a part of his diverse plan. He sent His Son Jesus as a brigde between man and God. Jesus is God but in human form. God gave us free will. He could interfere with our actions but the whole point of going through our actions is to learn from them and grow from them.

Quote:
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.


Because as the Bible states, the only way to enter the Kingdom of heaven is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Who ever beleives in Him will not perish, but have eteranal life.


Quote:
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?

Dam* you got me here!

Quote:
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?


Ok from my own perspective I would think this has to do with the fear that comes attached to the punishment of eternal hell if disputed. I think a lot of christian's have a sense of "oh no, you are dammed to hell if I don't help you see the light. And I am a sinner if I see that and don't try to help you..dah dah dah..."

How did I do?

ElfMan



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31 Mar 2005, 10:14 pm

axelkat wrote:
thechadmaster wrote:
Quote:
teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


Why you talk about buddha like hes nobody, he taught the noble truths. Buddha is my homeboy. You legalists are so full of yourselfs. Your obviously trying to start fights rather accomplish anything whatsoever. Martin Luther was right with his statements as the catholic church looks at the pope as god more then the actual god. i grew up in an irish protestant home. they would rip any nearby catholics to shreds. who do you think your fooling with your nonsense? (edit)
AK


I here buddha calling you to re-sit lessons on right speech right action.
Please refrain from such personally directed profanity...especially while claiming buddha as your homeboy

ElfMan



Glenn
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01 Apr 2005, 12:19 am

ElfMan wrote:
Glenn, I'm going to try and answer you questions from a christian point of view. :lol: I am willing to stand corrected

Thank you.


Quote:
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can‚Äö?Ñ?¥t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?

God does not suffer from human emotions. Everything is a part of his diverse plan. He sent His Son Jesus as a brigde between man and God. Jesus is God but in human form. God gave us free will. He could interfere with our actions but the whole point of going through our actions is to learn from them and grow from them.


With respect, I am not sure how this answers the question about God seemingly being more interested in mankind worshipping him than in how men treat each other. And if he does in fact have a "plan" for us, why doesnt he make it clear to everyone (not just Christsian believers)what it is? Why should a creature with free will have to follow blindly a divine plan that is not explained? I still do not understand why God should punish people who do not accept him. If he gave them free will, he cannot object because they use it, surely? Human non-belief cant hurt him since nothing we do can hurt him. So why punish us?

Quote:
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.


Quote:
Because as the Bible states, the only way to enter the Kingdom of heaven is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. Who ever beleives in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.


Again, I am sorry, but how is this statement that 'God tells us this' an explanation for why he should condemn non believers to eternal punishment? I guess my original question asks the REASON he should do this.In addition, not having eternal life in heaven is one thing. Punishment is another. Couldnt they be denied eternal life by just ceasing to exist? Not have eternal pain and suffering? Wouldnt that satisfy your God (if he does not have emotions)?
Also, please may I enquire ow you know the Bible is true... the real Word of God? I have heard Christians say they know what God tells us because it is in the Bible.But when I say how do they know the the Bible is true, they say because God tells us it is his word. (The circular argument troubles me) I guess it is a matter of faith only ....but as I said, I hoped for some more reasoned answers to my questions! You see: for someone like me, faith alone is NOT a sufficient answer.


Quote:
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?


Quote:
Dam* you got me here!


I applaud your honesty :-)

Quote:
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don‚Äö?Ñ?¥t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?

Quote:
Ok from my own perspective I would think this has to do with the fear that comes attached to the punishment of eternal hell if disputed. I think a lot of christian's have a sense of "oh no, you are dammed to hell if I don't help you see the light. And I am a sinner if I see that and don't try to help you..dah dah dah..."


This is interesting. I realised some Christians think t hey have a duty to try to convert non-believers: I did not realise they might fear punishment as a sinner if they dont at least try this. That would explain the zeal. But again, as I do not believe a god would care about whether you believe or not, I find it difficult to accept that he might punish a Christian for not trying to convert you.
It might interest you to know that Buddhism would not support any form of evangelism or deliberate attempt to convert someone who is already happy with his own beliefs (or even lack of belief) To do this (force your own views on someone) is viewed as a sort of mental violence, even if it is of a mild kind, and Buddhism is opposed to violence of any kind. So I doubt you'll find Buddhist missionaries knocking on your door. Buddhists reckon that when someone is ready for knowledge, or desires it, then they will find someone to ask who can help; until then, there would be no point in forcing them to listen.
Quote:
How did I do?


I appreciate your reply, but I don't feel that it really answers the questions as fully as I hoped. I hope you are not offended, as I am not trying to put you down. appreciate that to a believer, I probably seem as set in my ways as anyone, and probably very difficult to convince; but I am still very interested to know what you (and anyone else who cares to reply) think about these subjects.

Glenn



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01 Apr 2005, 1:11 am

Sorry Glenn. I better make it more clear that I am not a christian. The answers I gave you were from a perspective of the time when I was one. (years ago now). You are right the answers are circular. All your questions seem to point to the same thing. How can God send people to hell for eternity?

God only knows!

I think this is totally misunderstood knowledge. I also think that the true teachings of the man Jesus were very similar to what Buddha has tought. Although different. And very much abused and twisted by the system.

And this is hard to point out considering how Constantine had all reference of reincarnation struck from the bible.

But Jesus talks about being born again of the Spirit as apposed to the flesh. What I think he basically says is that unless you find truth with your spirit you are going to suffer. Let go of worldy possesions he states.
So I think that the eternal hell He spoke of could have something to do with being caught in the wheel.

I read a book called Vipissana Meditation - Art of Living and it changed my life and my mind.
I am quite fond of buddha but I hate seeing statues of him everywhere. He never wanted to be anyone's focal point, he just wanted us to learn to live.

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01 Apr 2005, 7:05 am

ElfMan wrote:
axelkat wrote:
thechadmaster wrote:
Quote:
teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


Why you talk about buddha like hes nobody, he taught the noble truths. Buddha is my homeboy. You legalists are so full of yourselfs. Your obviously trying to start fights rather accomplish anything whatsoever. Martin Luther was right with his statements as the catholic church looks at the pope as god more then the actual god. i grew up in an irish protestant home. they would rip any nearby catholics to shreds. who do you think your fooling with your nonsense? (edit)
AK


I here buddha calling you to re-sit lessons on right speech right action.
Please refrain from such personally directed profanity...especially while claiming buddha as your homeboy

ElfMan

Catholic do not view the pope as God, merely Christ's representative on earth.


MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON ALL MANKIND.


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01 Apr 2005, 7:43 am

Can we please debate the issue without further swearing at each other folks? I don't want to have to lock this discussion a second time. :evil:


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01 Apr 2005, 2:09 pm

My apologies to chadmaster and anyone else i offended. I overreacted and was most certainly not displaying the teachings of the Buddha in my language.
AK


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01 Apr 2005, 6:11 pm

I have noticed people discussing at length the "one who is the way" without defining what that means. Are you saying it's the name that counts? If so, don't say "God" say "Jehovah" lest your "dial a god" gets the wrong number. Or just say it's the spirit of the name in question, which is love, and light. And remember, just because you say, "Lord, Lord" doesn't mean anything, but doing his will matters. (Even if you don't know his real name or recognize it.)

TAFKASH,

All possible choices are available. You have multiple futures, as physics seems to be revealing. So your life is what you make of it. In some ways, it is like "Gorundhog Day" on a very much larger scale. Your life is your choice, as physics reveals. I am not saying I completelsy understand the mathmatical part of the physics involved, (yet) but my point is stlll there. You are a free will agent, because you don't just exist now, you also exist in timelessness, and much is open to you. Science is starting to show us that we are more than what we are used to measuring and counting as belongs to us.. There are powers that belong to us existing in what sciences like to call "hyperspace".

There is a God, because ultimately the entire unerverse is woven together in a mass conciousness, in accordence with the laws of thermodynamics that Progogine showed us. We live an exist in a highly complex, organized dissapative structure called "God" "Love" "Allah" Or whateve else, but a rose is a rose, regardless of the name, and in the end, everything finds its place.

Anyway, I've gotta run.

Ta ta, for now. :)

1PM



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01 Apr 2005, 6:40 pm

1PeaceMaker wrote:
TAFKASH,


Hello there - how may I be of assistance this fine April 1st evening?

1PeaceMaker wrote:
All possible choices are available. You have multiple futures, as physics seems to be revealing. So your life is what you make of it. In some ways, it is like "Gorundhog Day" on a very much larger scale. Your life is your choice, as physics reveals.


I disagree yet again. I will state it again for the nth time: We have no control over how our personalities are formed. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Diddly-squat. We develop into the characters we are due to forces completely beyond our control. I can not alter the kind of person that I am, neither can you or anybody else. The "choices" we make in life are completely ring-fenced and circumscribed by the kinds of people we are, and the kinds of personalities we have. If there is a correct "path" to godliness or whatever, some people have ready-made personalities to slot right into it with no effort. Other people have personalities which will completely preclude them from doing so. It is hardly fair to judge these people by the same criteria....... You wouldn't criticise somebody with no legs for losing a race to an able bodied athlete..... Why then would you harshly judge someone with a naturally "bad" personality for making bad "choices" when they are naturally predisposed to do so, due to forces completely beyond their control..... You can no more equitably send an "evil" person to hell for being "evil" than you can send a sprinter with no legs to hell for losing lots of races - its that simple..... There is no possible equitable way for a deity to allocate after-life punishment to people based on life choices.... There simply isn't..... End of story.....

1PeaceMaker wrote:
I am not saying I completelsy understand the mathmatical part of the physics involved, (yet) but my point is stlll there. You are a free will agent, because you don't just exist now, you also exist in timelessness, and much is open to you. Science is starting to show us that we are more than what we are used to measuring and counting as belongs to us.. There are powers that belong to us existing in what sciences like to call "hyperspace".


I'm not going to argue quark, strangeness and charm on this topic, sadly :wink: It is a demonstrable fact that we have no say over how our lives develop, irrespective of kinks in the time space continuum or whatever....... Endless possibilities may be open to us at every turn, but our innate nature will always exclude the "choice" of the vast majority of these "choices", and inevitably force us to have to select from an, in reality, very small subset of these "choices"..... This fact cannot be argued against, and I'm a little puzzled as to why so many people on this thread are lobbying against this very clear and obvious point.... :?

1PeaceMaker wrote:
There is a God, because ultimately the entire unerverse is woven together in a mass conciousness, in accordence with the laws of thermodynamics that Progogine showed us. We live an exist in a highly complex, organized dissapative structure called "God" "Love" "Allah" Or whateve else, but a rose is a rose, regardless of the name, and in the end, everything finds its place.


.....and you were doing so well, too..... :lol: The laws of thermodynamics prove there is a God then, eh? Somehow I think not...... :wink: This is a blind, logical leap of faith from science to the absurd and I'm sure you know it deep down, really.... No offence.... :)

1PeaceMaker wrote:
Anyway, I've gotta run.

Ta ta, for now. :)

1PM


Always a pleasure matey - It makes a novel change to speak to a "Christian" (I hope I can call you that?) who's at least partly open to new ideas and logic, and who can actually debate on articles of faith..... Let's do it again sometime. :wink:


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01 Apr 2005, 6:48 pm

All of these changes and talk of god brings me closer to converting to Islam. I have never really disagreed with them. Being part of a nation that will never fall sounds great as well.
AK


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01 Apr 2005, 7:45 pm

axelcat, thanks for your apology. Chadmaster, do you forgive axelkat?

TAFKASH ( Man, I still have to look at your name every time I type it!)

I can see where you are coming from I think. Is it like if your born a cat you have cat choices you can make. But you can't make dog choices etc.??

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01 Apr 2005, 7:59 pm

ElfMan wrote:
TAFKASH ( Man, I still have to look at your name every time I type it!)


Just think "Welsh money" - that'll help you remember it :wink:

ElfMan wrote:
I can see where you are coming from I think. Is it like if your born a cat you have cat choices you can make. But you can't make dog choices etc.??


Not a bad analogy actually :) - indeed, my point entirely. If somebody decides that you can only get into the "Kingdom of Heaven" by licking people's faces, chasing sticks, wagging your tail and going "woof" a lot, then you'd be somewhat stuffed if you were born a cat, and would be entitled to feel more than a little peeved at the injustice of it all..... Same way as some poor sod who's naturally and unavoidably a git should feel peeved at being excluded from paradise for being a git.... A cat could try to act like a dog, but would have an appallingly difficult time of it, would be acting completely contrary to every fibre of their being, and ultimately could never succeed.... An actual dog, however, gets a shoe in...... Hardly fair is it?


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01 Apr 2005, 8:03 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
ElfMan wrote:
TAFKASH ( Man, I still have to look at your name every time I type it!)


Just think "Welsh money" - that'll help you remember it :wink:



Are you from Wales?
AK


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01 Apr 2005, 8:12 pm

TAFKASH wrote:

Quote:
Not a bad analogy actually - indeed, my point entirely. If somebody decides that you can only get into the "Kingdom of Heaven" by licking people's faces, chasing sticks, wagging your tail and going "woof" a lot, then you'd be somewhat stuffed if you were born a cat, and would be entitled to feel more than a little peeved at the injustice of it all..... Same way as some poor sod who's naturally and unavoidably a git should feel peeved at being excluded from paradise for being a git.... A cat could try to act like a dog, but would have an appallingly difficult time of it, would be acting completely contrary to every fibre of their being, and ultimately could never succeed.... An actual dog, however, gets a shoe in...... Hardly fair is it?


BRILLIANT, just BRILLIANT :!:

I needed a good belly laugh. cheers for that

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02 Apr 2005, 3:57 pm

axelkat wrote:
TAFKASH wrote:
ElfMan wrote:
TAFKASH ( Man, I still have to look at your name every time I type it!)


Just think "Welsh money" - that'll help you remember it :wink:



Are you from Wales?
AK


.......from Wales?????? Me????? I've never been so insulted....... :wink:

...which reminds me of my favourite Welsh gag, which I can't restrain myself from doing - apologies in advance: Why do Welsh shepherds like herding along cliff tops? It makes the sheep push back harder.....


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02 Apr 2005, 4:52 pm

Image

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