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ghotistix
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24 Mar 2005, 5:04 pm

thechadmaster wrote:
ghotistix wrote:
Every time religion is passed off as fact... God kills a kitten.

Please, think of the kittens.

What would God stand to gain from killing kittens?
How is this relevant?

Just a weak attempt to keep things lowbrow.



1PeaceMaker
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28 Mar 2005, 5:04 pm

Dan wrote:
thechadmaster wrote:
if you believe that


Question #1: Why does God care more about your beliefs than your actions?
Question #2: Is belief even a choice?


1. answer: He does not.

2. answer: No



i am a christian because christ showed me the "way". There is one "way" one truth, but many faiths. The truth, i.e. "reality" is light, God - life, etc.

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thechadmaster wrote:
Jesus died on the cross for you


Question #3: What about Deut. 24:16?

"Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to death for parents: a person shall be put to death only for his own crime."


Christ died for the transgessions under the first covenant, not for chad. Or me. or you. Not at least in a cerimonial way. The truth has been revealed, yet remains hidden to many, who look to Christ as the serpent on the pole and worship it.

BTW, Deut. does not apply in this case, as he gave himself, he took it upon himself to play his role.
Quote:
Question #4: What's the fate of all the people who never heard of Jesus?


The same as the fate of those who hear of him. Even an athiest can be saved if he has love in his heart. After all, God=Love.



TAFKASH
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28 Mar 2005, 5:19 pm

1PeaceMaker wrote:
Dan wrote:
thechadmaster wrote:
if you believe that


Question #1: Why does God care more about your beliefs than your actions?
Question #2: Is belief even a choice?


1. answer: He does not.

2. answer: No



i am a christian because christ showed me the "way". There is one "way" one truth, but many faiths. The truth, i.e. "reality" is light, God - life, etc.

Quote:
thechadmaster wrote:
Jesus died on the cross for you


Question #3: What about Deut. 24:16?

"Parents shall not be put to death for children, nor children be put to death for parents: a person shall be put to death only for his own crime."


Christ died for the transgessions under the first covenant, not for chad. Or me. or you. Not at least in a cerimonial way. The truth has been revealed, yet remains hidden to many, who look to Christ as the serpent on the pole and worship it.

BTW, Deut. does not apply in this case, as he gave himself, he took it upon himself to play his role.
Quote:
Question #4: What's the fate of all the people who never heard of Jesus?


The same as the fate of those who hear of him. Even an athiest can be saved if he has love in his heart. After all, God=Love.


Couldn't have said it better myself matey (for the most part :wink:)

My one disagreement is that I still believe that the "having love in your heart" bit isn't a choice anyone can make though either.... I can still see no equitable way for God to seperate the saved from the hellbound..... I just don't see how anybody has a real choice on what path to take through existence - we are all purely composites of our nurture and our nature, neither of which we have any say in nor control over. This is where the "freedom of choice" argument fundamentally falls down it seems to me.... Ultimately, we either all have to go to Heaven, or all to t'other place for there to be any justice in the system - a conundrum to be sure.


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29 Mar 2005, 12:46 am

1PeaceMaker wrote:
Quote:
Question #4: What's the fate of all the people who never heard of Jesus?


The same as the fate of those who hear of him. Even an athiest can be saved if he has love in his heart. After all, God=Love.



I find myself doing this to friends all the time at school. You either worded it badly or your wrong. I am Christian. I am Baptist Christian, but that means nothing to me because I sometimes disagree with some interpretations of verses. Anyways, if you're of the Christian religion, you should know that an athiest can love everybody and still not be "saved". As for the question, if you haven't heard about Christianity, you must not be listening. I have read page 6 and 1 of this thread, but I'd like to see where this leads too.

:evil: = BAD


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Last edited by Sarcastic_Name on 29 Mar 2005, 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TAFKASH
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29 Mar 2005, 7:56 am

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
1PeaceMaker wrote:
Quote:
Question #4: What's the fate of all the people who never heard of Jesus?


The same as the fate of those who hear of him. Even an athiest can be saved if he has love in his heart. After all, God=Love.



I find myself doing this to friends all the time at school. You either worded it badly or your wrong. I am Christian. I am Baptist Christian, but that means nothing to me because I sometimes disagree with some interpretations of verses. Anyways, if you're of the Christian religion, you should know that an athiest can love everybody and still not be "saved". As for the question, if you haven't heard about Christianity, you must not be listening. I have read page 6 and 1 of this thread, but I'd like to see where this leads too.

:evil: = BAD


Read the other pages of the post, bask in my shining wisdom, and then come back and see me later about anything you're stuck on - Stick with me kiddo, and I'll sort you out. :wink:


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29 Mar 2005, 1:13 pm

I don't know who I disagree more with... TAFKASH or chadmaster. First off, the Christians and Catholics use a slightly different Bible. The Catholic Bible has a few extra books in it that lead to contradictions. And so, Catholics and Christians are different. Not only that, Christians don't have a pope or higher up the ladder human leader. chadmaster is your typical brainwashed Catholic stereotype that annoys me beyond belief. To not even attempt to back up half the crap you say and to hang on the every word of some old guy who is a good swindler is ludacris. By the way, TAFKASH, not ALL Christian churches demand your money. My church just encourages it if you're a member. You need to look more deeply into the differences between Christians and Catholics to fully comprehend the point I am trying to make. I don't mind admitting it, but I'm anti-Catholic, I'll respect Catholics, but I'll just be slightly biased against anything religous they say. And as for a link between AS and fundamentalism, I don't know enough about AS to give an accurate response.


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thechadmaster
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29 Mar 2005, 6:30 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I don't know who I disagree more with... TAFKASH or chadmaster. First off, the Christians and Catholics use a slightly different Bible. The Catholic Bible has a few extra books in it that lead to contradictions. And so, Catholics and Christians are different. Not only that, Christians don't have a pope or higher up the ladder human leader. chadmaster is your typical brainwashed Catholic stereotype that annoys me beyond belief.


Brain washed?! I think not!


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TAFKASH
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29 Mar 2005, 7:43 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
By the way, TAFKASH, not ALL Christian churches demand your money. My church just encourages it if you're a member.


They "encourage" it - I like that :lol:. "Now there's no pressure, really - you don't have to give us your money.... Its strictly your choice.... *cough*youllburninhellifyoudontthough*cough*cough* Like I said... no pressure......." :wink: Listen matey - if the churches, ALL churches, weren't in it for the money and control over your life, there wouldn't be any point in them being there - that simple. They'd all be down the flea market trying to sell you knocked-off watches and mobile phones instead.

thechadmaster wrote:
Brain washed?! I think not!


Of course you're not brain washed..... You just unthinkingly and unquestioningly accept any load of old pony spouted at you by some old Polish gimmer, irrespective of its content or meaning, and unflinchingly base your actions, beliefs and entire value system around it..... No, nothing like brainwashed in the slightest..... :wink:


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29 Mar 2005, 10:54 pm

I'm having with this. How about the rest of you?

thechadmaster wrote:

Quote:
Brain washed?! I think not!


That's a pretty weak defense considering your someone who claims not to be brainwashed. I was expecting a more detailed response than that. Like, quoting random scriptures that make me seem unjust or anti-Christ. But that, honestly, you just seem to be in denial. Like a blind man convinced he can see. Going on, TAFKASH, you seem to be convinced of the opposite of whatever it is thechadmaster "believes". Honestly, do you think a church could run without some source of money? And again, they really only encourage it. It's very relaxed about money, it's the last thing mentioned. That's all I have to say for now. 8)


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29 Mar 2005, 11:11 pm

Sarcastic Name

Why are you statements littered with put-downs? It looks to me like you are playing Tafkash and Chadmaster off against each other. If your queeries are genuine how about some diplomicy?

How about we go back to discussing our differences instead of arguing about who is write before this thread gets locked and no-one has the opportunity to express their thoughts on this matter.


ElfMan



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29 Mar 2005, 11:31 pm

Sorry it sounded like that. What I said obout TAFKASH and thechadmaster having different beliefs was meant to be seen as an observation. And about the put-downs, I didn't think of them in that way. Sorry again. I tend to be observational in a somewhat pessimistic way. Then again, it's always a little fun to argue. This has become more of a debate than a discussion, in my opinoion. Ahhhh....
I think it's time someone attempt to bring us back to the original topic at hand. This could go too far. ElfMan has a point.


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29 Mar 2005, 11:39 pm

Thanks Sarcastic Name

No harm done I'm sure. And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure. I do want to say too that your points are relevent, just a little personal thats all.

ElfMan



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30 Mar 2005, 2:04 am

ElfMan wrote:
And yes my intentions were to nip it in the butt before things got obscure.


erm... sorry to be pedantic, but the phrase is "nip it in the bud" and not "butt". gave me a cracking good laugh first thing this morning, though - ta!



thechadmaster
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30 Mar 2005, 7:07 am

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I'm having with this. How about the rest of you?

thechadmaster wrote:
Quote:
Brain washed?! I think not!


That's a pretty weak defense considering your someone who claims not to be brainwashed. I was expecting a more detailed response than that. Like, quoting random scriptures that make me seem unjust or anti-Christ. But that, honestly, you just seem to be in denial. Like a blind man convinced he can see. Going on, TAFKASH, you seem to be convinced of the opposite of whatever it is thechadmaster "believes". Honestly, do you think a church could run without some source of money? And again, they really only encourage it. It's very relaxed about money, it's the last thing mentioned. That's all I have to say for now. 8)

I Believe because i WANT to believe, not b-cuz someone sez i will go to hell


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Glenn
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30 Mar 2005, 9:20 am

I do hope this thread doesnt get locked1 I find it fascinating, if puzzling (please see my previous post, on page 5 of this topic for the reasons why!).

I would be really grateful if someone could answer the frollowing queries, as I personally find a lot of the statements difficult to comprehend (and may I say that by “answer”, I am asking for a reasoned reply , supported by rational explanations; not just by a suggestion that we have been ‘ordered’ to believe thus.. by God, the Vatican, or any other “authority”. Because surely, if you believe that a God created you, and chose to give you an intelligent brain and the ability to reason ( which sets humans above the simple beasts of the field,) you must believe that God intended you to use his gifts. You would not want to insult him, surely, by refusing to use them as he intended?

My questions are:-
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?
And finally
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?

Glenn
(who is keeping fingers crossed that someone will reply!)