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TAFKASH
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30 Mar 2005, 8:47 pm

Bec wrote:
So, could somebody answer Glenn's questions because I would really like to know the answers too.


Of course they can't because there are no answers..... thousands of incredibly learned Christian scholars have spent 2000 years trying to come up with stuff to justify the evil machinations of their twisted faith, and the best any of them has ever managed to come up with is "God moves in mysterious ways" :roll: ...... In other words "OK, we can't justify or logically explain any of this utter crap we spout to you, but you'd still better just shut up, do as you're told and give us your money, or we'll set GOD onto you :evil:!"

The fact is you will never see any Christian offer any explanations as to why God is such a random, egomaniacal, vindictive, twisted little sod because there are none. You will only ever get "God moves in mysterious ways" or, God forbid, "I have faith, and that's all I need" :roll: as answers to any reasonable question from their bleached little minds....... :evil: Christianity can only survive by terrifying and brainwashing its victims into accepting rote-learnt, bite-sized little soundbites as stock answers to everything, and making sure that they'll never actually think about any of these responses, or consider why they are so logically moribund and incapable of offering even the meagerest splinter of an explanation for anything.....


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30 Mar 2005, 8:50 pm

thechadmaster wrote:
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teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs,
Budda did not die to forgive mankind.


Also, this topic was loked for about a day or so, apparently i pissed alot of people off


Nor will the pope.

I told my catholic ex that even the pope farts and she got very upset with me. Is he not human? I actually quite like the pope of today. It's the system that puts itself between me and my relationship with god that I can't come to terms with. Why create a seperation between a person and their personal relationship with god? Control is my answer to that. Because as far as I know I am not seperate from god until someone tries to put themself between us with an EGO issue.

If you only listen to people who have died to save you that only leaves jesus in your book doesn't it and the people that represent him have proven century after century to be EGO inflated liars.

Have you had any dealings with faiths outside of your own chadmaster? Have you ever looked past the surface of what they have to offer? Or does all your knowledge come from what other people tell you?

Researching something and questioning and testing something does not define faith so it would be absolutely safe for you to do so without fear of hell.

I would believe based on what you tell me about following god's law or go to hell that all people who worship on a Sunday will not see the light of heaven either.

Did you celebrate Easter Chadmaster? The ceramony that was dedicated to the Babylonian Godess Ester long before Christ's time. Which was adjusted acordingly with the story of Christ to convert more no-beleivers.

I have directed my questions to you because you have shown yourself to be quite frank about wanting to convert us. I've been there and done that and have no desire to return to it. If you wish to voice so stronlgy what others need to beleive, you need to be prepared to hear why we wont be converted. You also seem to have quite a surface understanding of what it is you want us to believe in.

So far all it has been is a "My faith is right everything else is wrong and will go to hell" type of discussion.
I can't accept this when your reason's are because somebody said so. We are asking you to tell us why, not what will happen if we don't. Most of us have all heard the "Hell" threat many a times in our lives. Everything in our day and age is promoted by fear campains and I and many others just don't buy into that either.
All we are asking for is some substance to your definisions.

If you want people to know what is true for you the best example you can give is to 'BE' it, 'LIVE it. Words fall well short of any example you can give with them.
I don't want to sound like I am dissing you for your faith. I have respect for faith. I feel it is a sign of wanting to do the right thing, which is integrity.

ElfMan



TAFKASH
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30 Mar 2005, 8:58 pm

ElfMan wrote:
It looks to me like you are playing Tafkash and Chadmaster off against each other. If your queeries are genuine how about some diplomicy?


Don't sweat it matey, its all well under control :wink: - It would take a rather more, shall we say, powerful debating force than Sarcastic_Name to ever be able to play me off against anybody..... :) The merest thought of me being capable of being manipulated by any of the foes I have yet encountered on these forums amuses me very greatly, to say the least :lol:

ElfMan wrote:
Did I mention that Moses had a stutter. And that Aaron was his spokesman. Never see that in the movies.


....and that he was born, lived his whole life and died in Africa, almost certainly making him black - don't forget that little overlooked Cecil B. DeMillism. :wink:


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Bec
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30 Mar 2005, 8:59 pm

ElfMan wrote:
Did you celebrate Easter Chadmaster? The ceramony that was dedicated to the Babylonian Godess Ester long before Christ's time. Which was adjusted acordingly with the story of Christ to convert more no-beleivers.


Exactly! How about Christmas? The 25th of December was not actually Christ's birthday, the Church took the date from a pagan holiday! Also the use of Christmas trees and holly doesn't have a Christian origin either.



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30 Mar 2005, 9:13 pm

Seeing as no Christian has as yet seen fit to meet Glenn's challenge, allow me to do the honours: (/me attempts to simulate brain damage of being exposed to virulent Christian dogma for an entire lifetime by sticking a coat-hanger up /me's nose and waggling)

Glenn wrote:
1) Why would an omnipotent god who is the creator and essence of the whole cosmos care a hoot whether his creatures accept him, believe in him or worship him? Unless of course he suffers fromn the all-too-human faults of vanity and jealousy (as I have said before) ! Surely a loving God would be more interested in the happiness and wellbeing of the beings he created. Men can’t harm God, but they can harm each other; wouldnt God therefore concern himself with their actions and motives towards each other?


Because God moves in mysterious ways....

Glenn wrote:
2) Why would a God who you presumably believe created all mankind (including the atheists as well as those of other religions) condemn to hell a person who, although not a Christsian of any denomination, is neither a sinner or nor an evildoer, but who in fact seeks to do good ? For example I have been fortunate enough to be present at some public lectures, and also some teaching sessions for Buddhists, given by the Dalai Lama. Now you may not share his beliefs, and he himself certainly would never claim to be infallible or to know everything, but it is difficult to inagine a more positive, caring and joyful man who has devoted his life to helping others. (He also has an infectious sense of humour) To the best of ny knowledge he has never harmed anyone or caused pain. But he doesnt accept the existence of God or recognise Christ as either divine or his saviour. Would such a man be destined for hell by your God? At the risk of sounding offensive, I wouldnt find such an irrationonal, vindictive god worth worshipping.


Because love of Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.....

Glenn wrote:
3) Even given that there are evil people, sinners who have caused immense pain and suffering in this world, their crimes - however extensive - are FINITE ....even if only because the are human and at some point they will die! How can a God who is said to be both just and forgiving condemn a sinner to infinite punishment (hell) for a finite sin?


True faith is all we need.....

Glenn wrote:
4) We all expect to enjoy the right to believe as we see fit. What I don’t understand though is why anyone should be offended by others who believe different things; or why anyone should think they have a right to try to browbeat others or coerce them into changing their ideas. An interesting discussion is fine; but why do some people seem to find it offensive that others have different religious beliefs?


Because the Pope says so.......


Sorry Glenn matey, as much as you and I both long for some Christian, any Christian, to at least try to give us some more worthwhile attempts at answers to these questions, the fact is those are the only answers they will ever give you, or are capable of giving you. The very core of their entire belief system would implode in a big squelchy mess if they even attempted to address these questions........ More to the point, they'd go to hell for it..... I think we may be expecting just a little too much from their fluffy little heads all things considered, sad to say......


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30 Mar 2005, 9:20 pm

Initially, yes. Long term, maybe not, probably not, if the person has enough nerve and courage to think deeply and confront unspeakables.

I was heavy duty extreme religious material (of various sorts) for most of my life. But I became very frustrated by the wishy-washiness of Christianity and religion in general. "Jesus LOVES you", "We just have to have faith!! !" and similar platitudes did absolutely nothing for me!

I am now happily agnostic. One can have very rigid, black and white ethics and be an athiest or agnostic. In fact, I think that being this way makes it a heckuvalot easier. I can examine my own thoughts about morality more objectively and logically than before,m when I had to go to a bible that was FULL of contradictions. (and please, please please, don't ask me for a list of contradictions....I'm not going to waste my time).



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30 Mar 2005, 9:43 pm

First off, you guys once again are treating Christians and Catholics as the same religion. Please don't insult me like that. *shiver* I don't have a pope. I know most historic religous movies have gross inaccuracies, but how is that relevant. Anyways, I'd like to say that you all are assuming every Christian or Catholic church is the same. Going on, regardless of what religion, some churches are good, some are bad, and they all have hypocrites.

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ElfMan wrote:
Did you celebrate Easter Chadmaster? The ceramony that was dedicated to the Babylonian Godess Ester long before Christ's time. Which was adjusted acordingly with the story of Christ to convert more no-beleivers.


I know that many religous holidays were originally paegan holidays. But replacing a paegan holiday with a Jesus holiday sounds like a smart way to spread a religion to me. It's just like how greeting card and chocolate companies invented Valentine's Day to make money. Christians and/or Catholics made holidays to sell religion. I don't see what's wrong with that.

As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


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30 Mar 2005, 10:13 pm

I am not classing catholics and christians as the same. They are very different. My church was methodist and totally against anything catholic. But they were totally against anything except their own ideals anyway. But if they converted a catholic, they would fluff around like a rooster on heat. What I do class as the same is western organized religion's inner core and motivation. I would say that the individual citizen's are an innocent if not nieve class to the over powered ego justifed systems they class themselves by.

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I know that many religous holidays were originally paegan holidays. But replacing a paegan holiday with a Jesus holiday sounds like a smart way to spread a religion to me. It's just like how greeting card and chocolate companies invented Valentine's Day to make money. Christians and/or Catholics made holidays to sell religion. I don't see what's wrong with that.


It's deceptive!! Just be honest with me, because when I figure out I have had the wool pulled over my eyes, I get cross. This is about getting numbers, not about giving truth. That's what I feel is wrong with it for me.

Uh...might be a good idea for you to look into Valentine's day history, it's got religious deception intertwined with it too. Nothing to do with greeting cards I'm afraid.

Can anyone help me explain why this stuff makes me feel decieved?

ElfMan



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31 Mar 2005, 12:06 am

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


Thank you. If you do ask your pastor (or other scholar) these questions, I hope you will let us know what he says, as I really would like to understand more even if I am not myself a member of your faith.
I would also be very grateful of course if anyone else here would give their responses. Scholar or not, it seems to me that anyone with very strong faith must have some insight into why they believe as they do, beyond blind obedience to authority; because surely "obedience" and "belief" are not at all the same thing!
On a lighter note, the discussion about all the unorthodox thinkers that fundamentalists (and others) think will go to hell reminds me of something that George Bernard Shaw said. I can't remember the quote exactly, but apparently GBS thought hell would be preferable to an eternity in heaven. "Heaven for climate", he said "....but Hell for society!"

Glenn



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31 Mar 2005, 12:20 am

Glenn wrote:
"Heaven for climate", he said "....but Hell for society!"


Amen! :lol:



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31 Mar 2005, 1:52 pm

TAFKASH wrote:

Couldn't have said it better myself matey (for the most part :wink:)

My one disagreement is that I still believe that the "having love in your heart" bit isn't a choice anyone can make though either.... I can still see no equitable way for God to seperate the saved from the hellbound..... I just don't see how anybody has a real choice on what path to take through existence - we are all purely composites of our nurture and our nature, neither of which we have any say in nor control over. This is where the "freedom of choice" argument fundamentally falls down it seems to me.... Ultimately, we either all have to go to Heaven, or all to t'other place for there to be any justice in the system - a conundrum to be sure.


Thanks.

God doesn't choose our fate, we do. That's why it's fair. And if you want to argue that we don't choose our fate, then no one does, and that's that.

His words judge us, not Him. It's just about cause and effect. Love is not what you feel, it's what you make of your life, and how you treat others. It's about what your priorities are. Because one day you wil regret the waste of your life, if you do waste it. That is why all the proud will be stubble. The fire is the consuming truth of your life, revealed at the end.

BTW, according to the Bible and science, we are all One, as we all exist within an ordered singularity, a concensus reality.



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31 Mar 2005, 2:40 pm

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for Glenn's questions. To be honest, I'm going to have to ask my pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than me to try to answer those. I won't even try, I know my limits when it comes to knowledge.


You're going to have to ask your pastor or someone who knows the Bible better than you to try to answer those??????? :roll: Why not try using the mind you were born with to try and answer the questions yourself? Why not just think about something independently, yourself, for once? Why do you feel compelled to have to turn to your moral and intellectual enslavers at every opportunity to provide you with their pre-packaged, ready-meal-for-one answers to even the most basic of your questions? Why is some jumped up jerk in a cassock any better qualified to give you answers than yourself or anyone else? And what on earth has anything in the bleeding Bible got to do with anwsering these questions anyway? Why can't Christians do anything for themselves unless its pre-approved by some git in a dress of some kind or other?

Christians brainwashed, pre-programmed automotons..... never..... :roll:

1PeaceMaker wrote:
God doesn't choose our fate, we do. That's why it's fair. And if you want to argue that we don't choose our fate, then no one does, and that's that.


I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


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31 Mar 2005, 3:44 pm

TAFKASH said:

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Why is some jumped up jerk in a cassock any better qualified to give you answers than yourself or anyone else? And what on earth has anything in the bleeding Bible got to do with anwsering these questions anyway?


Because all the pastors at my church have been to Christian Seminary School and know things I don't about the Bible. As for how the Bible helps with the qustion should be obvious. It's a guidebook for the religion. If you take it into context and know the history behind it, it could be very useful. And I don't know the Bible very well (bad memory), that's why I'm getting help for Glenn's questions.

TAFKASH said:
Quote:
I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way.


Wow, I partly agree with you on that one. But, I believe we have two paths to choose from. One with, and one without, God.


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31 Mar 2005, 4:40 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


erm... have i missed the sarcasm button here? am i going to have to disagree with TAFKASH, for the first time ever? will the world stop spinning in its orbit? is it a bird? is it a plane?

tune in next week - same time, same channel...

oops - got carried away there...



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31 Mar 2005, 6:34 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
... "I have faith, and that's all I need" ].....



I have faith and thats all i need :lol: :lol: :lol:
See below then see to the left :lol: :lol: :lol:


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31 Mar 2005, 7:06 pm

TAFKASH wrote:

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I must respectfully, but very firmly, disagree - none of us chooses or can choose our path through life - we are all clearly pre-ordained in our destinies from the days we are born, and none of us can do anything to alter them in any way. That's basic demonstrable fact matey. The whole "freedom of choice" thing is redundant tosh with no bearing in reality at all. None of us has any real "freedom of choice" at all.


I have a funny feeling that quantum physics might opose this theory. I too used to feel this way quite strongly TAFKASH. But there are many oportunities. One might lead to this, while the other leads to that. A chain of events linked together like the Flower of Life. You can go this way or that way or round in circles. You can even go beyond the boundries and create more links.
Just some of my thoughts. I wish I knew more about quantum physics.


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