Why do so many people think that abortion is acceptable?

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underwater
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03 Nov 2015, 11:55 am

If you don't believe in abortions, don't have one.

I am so over being lectured about this s**t. I carried a baby inside me for nine months, did you? No? Then you have no idea what you are talking about.

Pro-lifers seem to live in this fantasy world where women don't die in childbirth, people have enough money and family resources to take care of their children, a child that is the product of rape is a blessing for the mother, men would love to father the child of a rapist, adoptions go swimmingly...... Where do all these fantasies come from?



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03 Nov 2015, 12:02 pm

robo37 wrote:

So what if I'm 18 years old and male, that doesn't mean that my opinions don't matter. I have the upmost sympathy for the rape victims and am not misvaluing how real it is and am in no way claiming it to be anything other than a vile and discusting crime, but that is entirely different to saying that entitles them the power to choose whether something live or dies.


People choose whether 'somethings' live or die every damn day...the only reason people get so worked up over abortion is because these are 'things' that could become a human life. Because many people have it ingrained in them that humans are some how the most precious and special thing in the universe. People kill bugs, plants, animals and many other 'things' cleaning kills bacteria and bacteria are things.

If I got raped I would end the pregnancy one way or the other, best there is a safe route available so I don't have to try and force a miscarriage. I wouldn't go as far as a coat hanger or paying some shady nonprofessionals to do the procedure in hiding but I would probably greatly risk my health trying to cause that miscarriage.


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03 Nov 2015, 7:10 pm

There's always the option of celibacy.


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03 Nov 2015, 8:46 pm

If men had to have babies, there would probably be more abortions than there are right now. All of the single mothers raising their kids with no fathers around are proof of this. One of my friends can't even get child support from her ex-husband. They were married for 11 yrs. He lived with his mother (he's in his 40's) and didn't try to even find a job so he didn't have to pay child support. If men don't want to pay child support, then keep it in your pants.


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03 Nov 2015, 8:50 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
robo37 wrote:

So what if I'm 18 years old and male, that doesn't mean that my opinions don't matter. I have the upmost sympathy for the rape victims and am not misvaluing how real it is and am in no way claiming it to be anything other than a vile and discusting crime, but that is entirely different to saying that entitles them the power to choose whether something live or dies.


People choose whether 'somethings' live or die every damn day...the only reason people get so worked up over abortion is because these are 'things' that could become a human life. Because many people have it ingrained in them that humans are some how the most precious and special thing in the universe. People kill bugs, plants, animals and many other 'things' cleaning kills bacteria and bacteria are things.

If I got raped I would end the pregnancy one way or the other, best there is a safe route available so I don't have to try and force a miscarriage. I wouldn't go as far as a coat hanger or paying some shady nonprofessionals to do the procedure in hiding but I would probably greatly risk my health trying to cause that miscarriage.


And this is why I said in another thread that the abortion procedure should be available. Before abortion was legal, women did home abortions and they would die. If women decide to make this decision, they need to have a safe procedure so two lives aren't lost. I'm not for abortion for myself - I want to make that clear. Every woman has to make that decision for herself.


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03 Nov 2015, 9:56 pm

I'm for it because I don't think a woman should be made to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

I've been through unwanted pregnancy twice so this isn't some philosophical discussion about what I think I might do. I know I don't want kids and would get rid of them however I had to. Birth control isn't 100% effective, rape exists, and it's not really realistic to expect every person who never wants children to never have sex their entire lives.

Luckily I don't have to worry about pregnancy any more. I no longer have sex (because I don't want to, not as a birth control method). I also had cancer and had a hysterectomy a few years ago finally ridding me of the possibility of pregnancy and suffering through periods.



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04 Nov 2015, 1:49 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
There's always the option of celibacy.


NOT IF YOU WERE RAPED AND MADE PREGNANT BY FORCE.



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04 Nov 2015, 4:26 pm

So disturbing these threads, the casual peppering of concentration camp language all over the place. It's what murderers always do. Let's redefine what a human is so we can kill this inconvenient group without guilt or shame.



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04 Nov 2015, 5:24 pm

Mikah wrote:
So disturbing these threads, the casual peppering of concentration camp language all over the place. It's what murderers always do. Let's redefine what a human is so we can kill this inconvenient group without guilt or shame.


concentration camp language :roll:

No one is redefining humans just suggesting there is a point before which these humans or human cells, become a conscious living human being. And that during this point it ought to be up to the woman who has such a thing growing in her uterus whether she aborts it or not. Thing being sperm & egg, embryo or undeveloped fetus.

Also its worth noting the sorts of abortion procedures they show graphic pictures of on christian/right wing propaganda videos aren't legal in most states except in the case of medical emergencies so they are quite misleading. Not to mention most medical communities consider a baby viable when it can survive outside the womb at 24 weeks.

Not when it looks like this:
Image


But concentration camps deal with people who have been born and are both conscious and living, I doubt they'd waste time trying to provide medical attention to pregnant women whether it be helping them give birth or abortion as the purpose of them is genocide. Tissue and cell matter forming into a person isn't exactly a 'group' either.


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04 Nov 2015, 6:43 pm

Claiming that a fertilized egg or clump of unconscious cells as "human beings" raises an interesting question:

Let's say cloning is perfected in the near future. It has been done in other mammals since 'Dolly' the sheep was born in 1995, but the mortality rate is too high to consider human experiments as ethical. When that point is reached, to be rationally consistent the arguments that claim a fertilized egg is a human being will also have to apply that status to a single skin cell kept alive in a petri dish that has an equal potential to be a human being. Almost makes you wonder if that's why the anti-abortion crowd overlaps so highly with those who are against stem cell research, cloning, etc. - too many awkward theological questions.


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Mikah
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04 Nov 2015, 7:09 pm

Quote:
No one is redefining humans just suggesting there is a point before which these humans or human cells, become a conscious living human being.

Quote:
And that during this point it ought to be up to the woman who has such a thing growing in her uterus whether she aborts it or not.


Quoting for posterity and the next Nuremberg trials. :lol: Funny that being conscious is now required to be fully human and worthy of protection. I fall unconscious for several hours every night.

Quote:
Not to mention most medical communities consider a baby viable when it can survive outside the womb at 24 weeks.


There are so many holes in the woman's choice argument. Why is there no legal choice after this seemingly arbitrary limit (arbitrary because its based on a hypothetical that only a monster would attempt - removing a baby from the womb and placing it in neonatal care for no good reason). We say sorry lady, it's past 24 weeks your choices are no more, any attempt to abort the pregnancy is illegal. The previously untouchable right of bodily autonomy is revoked in an instant.
On the same vein why are women shamed (perhaps even prosecuted in some jurisdictions?) for smoking, drinking or taking drugs while pregnant? It's her body, her choice, yet we somehow recognise the baby needs to be protected inside the womb unless we want to kill the baby - then comes the cognitive dissonance and concentration camp thinking. This is what I am talking about.

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Tissue and cell matter forming into a person isn't exactly a 'group' either.


The group is unwanted children. Abortion is just a violent method of disposing of them.



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04 Nov 2015, 7:40 pm

Quote:
Let's say cloning is perfected in the near future. It has been done in other mammals since 'Dolly' the sheep was born in 1995, but the mortality rate is too high to consider human experiments as ethical. When that point is reached, to be rationally consistent the arguments that claim a fertilized egg is a human being will also have to apply that status to a single skin cell kept alive in a petri dish that has an equal potential to be a human being. Almost makes you wonder if that's why the anti-abortion crowd overlaps so highly with those who are against stem cell research, cloning, etc. - too many awkward theological questions.


If you're interested in my viewpoint, I will oblige. There is more to it than just being a fertilised egg, in natural conception not every egg that is fertilised will result in pregnancy. The pregnancy has to take, many other things have to be just right for pregnancy to occur. I don't have any particular qualms about people experimenting with eggs in laboratories. But if the mad scientist in question created a cloned human fertilised egg and implanted it into a woman _and_ the implantation was successful such that in 9 months time (excluding unforeseen medical problems) she will give birth to a child. Then that future member of the human race becomes worthy of protection.

The single skin cell you describe isn't going to be a human unless you take further action. The implanted egg will be, nay, is a human on the way unless you interfere. There might be a moral argument to say that every created clone egg should be implanted (aka it's immoral not to roll the dice - similar to the catholic position) I struggle to see that side of things myself, but I am certain once the dice have been rolled, in general, it's immoral to end that life.



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04 Nov 2015, 7:51 pm

because a fetus is not a full-fledged human. even the bible fines someone for fetal loss by hitting the mother but requires stoning if the mother dies.



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04 Nov 2015, 9:41 pm

Mikah wrote:
Quote:
Let's say cloning is perfected in the near future. It has been done in other mammals since 'Dolly' the sheep was born in 1995, but the mortality rate is too high to consider human experiments as ethical. When that point is reached, to be rationally consistent the arguments that claim a fertilized egg is a human being will also have to apply that status to a single skin cell kept alive in a petri dish that has an equal potential to be a human being. Almost makes you wonder if that's why the anti-abortion crowd overlaps so highly with those who are against stem cell research, cloning, etc. - too many awkward theological questions.


If you're interested in my viewpoint, I will oblige. There is more to it than just being a fertilised egg, in natural conception not every egg that is fertilised will result in pregnancy. The pregnancy has to take, many other things have to be just right for pregnancy to occur. I don't have any particular qualms about people experimenting with eggs in laboratories. But if the mad scientist in question created a cloned human fertilised egg and implanted it into a woman _and_ the implantation was successful such that in 9 months time (excluding unforeseen medical problems) she will give birth to a child. Then that future member of the human race becomes worthy of protection.

The single skin cell you describe isn't going to be a human unless you take further action. The implanted egg will be, nay, is a human on the way unless you interfere. There might be a moral argument to say that every created clone egg should be implanted (aka it's immoral not to roll the dice - similar to the catholic position) I struggle to see that side of things myself, but I am certain once the dice have been rolled, in general, it's immoral to end that life.


I hope you have a little daughter some day--and that she gets gang raped and impregnated and you get to tell her how immoral abortion is then. f**k you and die in a fire.



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04 Nov 2015, 10:20 pm

Wilburforce, silencing your opponents by getting these threads locked through indulging in personal attacks is a shameful thing to do. You should not allow the expression of an opinion affect you so deeply.