Why do so many people think that abortion is acceptable?

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Misslizard
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04 Nov 2015, 11:38 pm

So who takes care of the baby an underaged drug addict has,a kid with possible special needs? The addict? Foster care? It's hard to adopt out babies that aren't "perfect"by societies standards.
What about the victims of incest or rape? Is it fair to ask a twelve year old girl to carry to term a baby made by her step dad?


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cathylynn
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04 Nov 2015, 11:43 pm

Misslizard wrote:
So who takes care of the baby an underaged drug addict has,a kid with possible special needs? The addict? Foster care? It's hard to adopt out babies that aren't "perfect"by societies standards.
What about the victims of incest or rape? Is it fair to ask a twelve year old girl to carry to term a baby made by her step dad?

very good points. a young teenager's body is not ready for pregnancy, so has higher health risks.



Mikah
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05 Nov 2015, 12:05 am

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So who takes care of the baby an underaged drug addict has,a kid with possible special needs? The addict? Foster care? It's hard to adopt out babies that aren't "perfect"by societies standards.


There are difficulties I agree, not all kids are adopted and not all are suitable for foster care, but what happened to good old fashioned orphanges? There are worse upbringings you can inflict. No matter the expense or difficulty of taking care of these kids I can't justify killing them.

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What about the victims of incest or rape? Is it fair to ask a twelve year old girl to carry to term a baby made by her step dad?


Giving birth so young might be abnormally risky so abortion might be justified on health grounds, you would have to ask a obstetrician. Assuming age wasn't a problem though I don't think it's ok to abort because the child was concieved in a horrible way. Pregnancy is a temporary state of affairs though, bad memories notwithstanding. Hypothetically lets say you are attacked on the street, you are beaten quite badly and left with nasty injuries and it will take you a year to walk again. A doctor appears with a magic pill, if you take it, your body will heal instantly. The only catch is you have to kill a child to get it, well lets say it's the (innocent) child of your attacker. Do you kill the child?

In case anyone thinks otherwise I would never judge a woman for giving up a child of incest or rape, I completely understand that.



cathylynn
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05 Nov 2015, 12:22 am

i am not going to risk death and stigma, change my body for the worse, and go through hours of the worst pain imaginable to have some jerk's baby. especially when a 6 - 8 wk. abortion has zero chance of causing pain to the fetus because its nervous system isn't developed. there are other considerations. pregnant women often are fired from their jobs or expelled from school. not everyone can afford that.

abortion wasn't even a religious issue until the regressive, repressive right took it up as a wedge issue to gain votes along with the anti-life pro-guns at all costs stance.



Mikah
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05 Nov 2015, 12:41 am

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i am not going to risk death and stigma, change my body for the worse, and go through hours of the worst pain imaginable to have some jerk's baby. especially when a 6 - 8 wk. abortion has zero chance of causing pain to the fetus because its nervous system isn't developed. there are other considerations. pregnant women often are fired from their jobs or expelled from school. not everyone can afford that.


Killing someone painlessly is still killing. The risk of death for a healthy of-age woman is minimal in the first world. I'm not a pacifist, there is a time to kill, but nothing you have listed justifies killing, especially not a child.



Sweetleaf
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05 Nov 2015, 12:56 am

Mikah wrote:
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So who takes care of the baby an underaged drug addict has,a kid with possible special needs? The addict? Foster care? It's hard to adopt out babies that aren't "perfect"by societies standards.


There are difficulties I agree, not all kids are adopted and not all are suitable for foster care, but what happened to good old fashioned orphanges? There are worse upbringings you can inflict. No matter the expense or difficulty of taking care of these kids I can't justify killing them.

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What about the victims of incest or rape? Is it fair to ask a twelve year old girl to carry to term a baby made by her step dad?


Giving birth so young might be abnormally risky so abortion might be justified on health grounds, you would have to ask a obstetrician. Assuming age wasn't a problem though I don't think it's ok to abort because the child was concieved in a horrible way. Pregnancy is a temporary state of affairs though, bad memories notwithstanding. Hypothetically lets say you are attacked on the street, you are beaten quite badly and left with nasty injuries and it will take you a year to walk again. A doctor appears with a magic pill, if you take it, your body will heal instantly. The only catch is you have to kill a child to get it, well lets say it's the (innocent) child of your attacker. Do you kill the child?

In case anyone thinks otherwise I would never judge a woman for giving up a child of incest or rape, I completely understand that.



I don't think you know a whole lot about what all pregnancy entails, that is 9 months of life...and it effects hormones, mental state and has its own health risks even in a healthy woman. Sure easy to say 'its temporary' but likely much harder to actually deal with pregnancy. I know I personally could not handle it mentally and I have doubts about my physical ability to....also its my body no ones going to force me to endure a pregnancy I don't want without a major fight.

I don't care if you think its immoral or not, your entitled to your opinion...but your not entitled to other peoples bodies or uterus, to dictate what they do with it. Also sure giving up a child of incest or rape is possible, and so is abortion so said women does not have to endure the risks of pregnancy after that trauma and whatever physical injuries the rape may have caused. You seriously suggest that a women be forced to grow that embryo into a baby against their will?

And then what about if a woman gets pregnant and it is found she has some health condition or too bad of general health to safely endure pregnancy?



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05 Nov 2015, 12:59 am

Mikah wrote:
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i am not going to risk death and stigma, change my body for the worse, and go through hours of the worst pain imaginable to have some jerk's baby. especially when a 6 - 8 wk. abortion has zero chance of causing pain to the fetus because its nervous system isn't developed. there are other considerations. pregnant women often are fired from their jobs or expelled from school. not everyone can afford that.


Killing someone painlessly is still killing. The risk of death for a healthy of-age woman is minimal in the first world. I'm not a pacifist, there is a time to kill, but nothing you have listed justifies killing, especially not a child.


Death isn't the only risk....also not everyone agrees with you that a child and an embryo/fetus that may or may not even mature into a baby are the same thing. I don't think anyone is saying to round up children and kill them.



cathylynn
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05 Nov 2015, 1:11 am

Mikah wrote:
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i am not going to risk death and stigma, change my body for the worse, and go through hours of the worst pain imaginable to have some jerk's baby. especially when a 6 - 8 wk. abortion has zero chance of causing pain to the fetus because its nervous system isn't developed. there are other considerations. pregnant women often are fired from their jobs or expelled from school. not everyone can afford that.


Killing someone painlessly is still killing. The risk of death for a healthy of-age woman is minimal in the first world. I'm not a pacifist, there is a time to kill, but nothing you have listed justifies killing, especially not a child.

it's not a someone or a child.



Mikah
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05 Nov 2015, 1:33 am

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I don't think you know a whole lot about what all pregnancy entails, that is 9 months of life...and it effects hormones, mental state and has its own health risks even in a healthy woman. Sure easy to say 'its temporary' but likely much harder to actually deal with pregnancy. I know I personally could not handle it mentally and I have doubts about my physical ability to


All good points, but the moral question is how much suffering and of what kind makes it acceptable to kill a child? In my hypothetical example the victim is all but permanently crippled and needs a year of physical therapy to recover. While I have not been pregnant myself it's easy to see that the pregnancy is easier to endure. Still neither scenario would justify the killing.
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your not entitled to other peoples bodies or uterus, to dictate what they do with it


Me personally perhaps not, but as a society we can do what we like with laws. We still have laws on paper that say ingesting drugs is illegal, as is prostitution and exorbitant public nudity. Those laws are telling you what you can and can't do with your body, feebly enforced though they may be. Whatever your views on these things, the sacred cow of bodily autonomy is only held up where people need it to suit their purposes. Society can and will dictate to you where it deems it necessary.
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You seriously suggest that a women be forced to grow that embryo into a baby against their will?


I see it as collateral damage, damage that can be fixed through an extremely questionable act. See my hypothetical example.

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And then what about if a woman gets pregnant and it is found she has some health condition or too bad of general health to safely endure pregnancy?


I've covered this previously, where the risks are abnormal due to age or medical conditions, the choice to abort is justified.

@cathylynn & sweetleaf both

Whatever the embryo or fetus is or is not (nice dehumanising words). If you do not interfere with the pregnancy violently through abortion and there are no extenuating circumstances, that fetus or embryo will be born and have a future outside the womb of one sort or another. I said in a previous thread killing anyone painlessly is wrong, because you are depriving that person of future experience, good or bad. What does abortion do to the "embryo" if not that.

As the mother has the right to decide whether the being growing inside her has a future or not, so does the hypothetical maniac standing over you while you sleep, ready to extinguish you painlessly.



Mikah
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05 Nov 2015, 1:46 am

A supplementary, I am happy to discuss these extreme examples with people. But my biggest issue with abortion is that it has become a backstop for contraception, most babies are aborted for convenience, out of laziness and increasingly for minor defects and gender. If the law were changed in such a way that abortion was made legal only for rape, incest, severe deformity and medical reasons, I would be ecstatically happy with such a compromise, despite finding some of those instances morally questionable at best.



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05 Nov 2015, 1:50 am

Mikah wrote:
A supplementary, I am happy to discuss these extreme examples with people. But my biggest issue with abortion is that it has become a backstop for contraception, most babies are aborted for convenience, out of laziness and increasingly for minor defects and gender. If the law were changed in such a way that abortion was made legal only for rape, incest, severe deformity and medical reasons, I would be ecstatically happy with such a compromise, despite finding some of those instances morally questionable at best.



in every pack of birth control pills, it says the following: the birth control method with the least health risks is a barrier method backed up by abortion. abortion is good birth control.



cathylynn
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05 Nov 2015, 1:54 am

fetus and embryo aren't "dehumanizing". these are accurate medical terms for the stage of development such as adolescent.



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05 Nov 2015, 1:56 am

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Wilburforce, silencing your opponents by getting these threads locked through indulging in personal attacks is a shameful thing to do. You should not allow the expression of an opinion affect you so deeply.


You are speaking to someone who was raped and had a pregnancy scare from it, and you have no sensitivity to that whatsoever. You are a terrible person and I hope you feel bad about this conversation. Your opinion on what I should allow to happen to my body (gestate the fetus of a rapist, allow that parasite to feed off my body for 9 months and then come exploding out of me) after being raped and having the control over my body already taken away from me in not being able to choose to not have his sperm inside me in the first place--you are an inhuman monster if you can contemplate that and still tell me I should have to carry that inside me. Seriously, there is something wrong with you and you should feel bad about yourself. Your "opinion" is f*****g revolting and stomach churning. You are a piece of garbage, feel that deeply about yourself and live in that shame.

I don't even care if I get banned for this. It was worth it to tell you what I really think of you.



Mikah
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05 Nov 2015, 2:27 am

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in every pack of birth control pills, it says the following: the birth control method with the least health risks is a barrier method backed up by abortion. abortion is good birth control.


My position is fairly simple: that life begins at conception, regardless of the circumstances. If you take that position abortion is good birth control the way that [insert favourite historical massacre] was good population control.

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fetus and embryo aren't "dehumanizing". these are accurate medical terms for the stage of development such as adolescent.


Being "accurate medical terms" is part of what makes them dehumanising. They evoke a clinical mindset, not the emotional one necessary to see a being as human, instead of a statistic or non-human entity.

@Wilburforce Rape victims have my sympathy, but that sympathy does not extend to excusing the killing of another human. I am sad my opinions seem to be having such a detrimental effect on your mental health. But that is not my problem, it is yours, if this thread is causing you such anguish then please for your own sake, stop reading it. Debate is good, all opinions should be heard and discussed, if for no other reason than to understand what those among us think. As such debate must always continue in one form or another regardless of what emotion is evoked - if we did stop debate for such reasons there would be no debate at all on anything whatsoever.



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05 Nov 2015, 2:35 am

Mikah wrote:
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So who takes care of the baby an underaged drug addict has,a kid with possible special needs? The addict? Foster care? It's hard to adopt out babies that aren't "perfect"by societies standards.


There are difficulties I agree, not all kids are adopted and not all are suitable for foster care, but what happened to good old fashioned orphanges? There are worse upbringings you can inflict. No matter the expense or difficulty of taking care of these kids I can't justify killing them.

Quote:
What about the victims of incest or rape? Is it fair to ask a twelve year old girl to carry to term a baby made by her step dad?


Giving birth so young might be abnormally risky so abortion might be justified on health grounds, you would have to ask a obstetrician. Assuming age wasn't a problem though I don't think it's ok to abort because the child was concieved in a horrible way. Pregnancy is a temporary state of affairs though, bad memories notwithstanding. Hypothetically lets say you are attacked on the street, you are beaten quite badly and left with nasty injuries and it will take you a year to walk again. A doctor appears with a magic pill, if you take it, your body will heal instantly. The only catch is you have to kill a child to get it, well lets say it's the (innocent) child of your attacker. Do you kill the child?

In case anyone thinks otherwise I would never judge a woman for giving up a child of incest or rape, I completely understand that.


Good old fashions orphanges??Like as in Oliver Twist?Look up RAD.
http://www.livescience.com/21778-early- ... rains.html
To bad you are not a male sea horse.
Pregnancy may be a temporary state of affairs but it's not without risk.Especially to the young and those with drug habits.Their health is already compromised,then also figure in the tax payer expense.Who pays for the emergency c - section,the cost of a premature drug addicted child,the cost to warehouse those poor children that no one wants to adopt.
I don't like the idea of late term abortion,only if the mothers health was severely compromised.
I suggest that the men that are bothered by abortion get working on inventing an artificial womb.Then you can raise the child and care for it yourself.


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