Page 2 of 3 [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,636

14 Nov 2012, 12:38 pm

LKL wrote:
I've been listening to a guy named Lazlo Montgomery, who runs 'The China History Podcast,' about The Cultural Revolution. I'd had NO idea just how bad it was; Chinese history really wasn't covered at all in any of my history classes, including at the University level. I've been horrified not just by the deaths, but by the Animal-Farm-like atmosphere of thought control, the constant playing of one group off of another, and by the 'values' espoused by Mao.

I'm economically a socialist, but that guy was evil.


The Cultural Revolution was not as pervasive and as murderous as people make it out to be. Moreover, unlike Stalin, Mao did not dispose of his party rivals. It's been said that had Bukharin, for example, been not executed, he could have been a Deng Xiaoping in post-Stalin USSR.

Essentially, it's accepted that the Party was not pleased with the way the Great Leap Forward went, and Mao's party rivals eclipsed him during the 1960s, returning to more of the ways of the First Five Year Plan, that being the Stalin-Soviet inspired centralised model. The Cultural Revolution was Mao's power play, so to speak, using students and disgruntled people in general to attack the Party and his rivals but these rivals were usually made to work in factories. Liu Shaoqi did die in prison but the circumstances are murky. There were no Moscow Trials and executions. Incidentally, the Cultural Revolution was cited as justification for the Tiananmen Square Massacre; that is, Deng Xiaoping and company saw the students as being similar to the Red Guards of the Cultural Revolution period and that the protests were motivated in part by the inequalities resulting from the repudiation of aspects of Maoism. Health care under Mao for most was far better than it was in the periods following it. It's only now under Hu Jintao that they're trying to restore the level of service for the rural poor that existed under Mao.



Last edited by xenon13 on 14 Nov 2012, 12:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 18,614
Location: Aux Arcs

14 Nov 2012, 12:42 pm

Ask a Tibetan about Mao.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

14 Nov 2012, 1:59 pm

Last time I checked, Mao currently holds the prestigious title of being the greatest mass murderer in the history of mankind.

*barely suppresses urge to post gifs of Orson Welles and The Joker clapping*

I found this site which even considers the possibility that even the higher estimates of the number of deaths due to Mao's regime may be under-reported, as the effects of the Great Famine during the Great Leap Forward were largely unknown in the West until 1980.

http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm

Several of the authors on the site are the same ones used on Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap ... nsequences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laogai#History

The site also has a nice comparison with other genocides. Considering that Mao was apparently responsible for some 40 million deaths (some of the higher estimates even puts the Mao Regime above the total death toll in World War II, BTW 8O) and WWII resulted in 60+ million deaths divided between several warring nations, he is pretty much the big bad.

Side note: Those who think that biodiversity is just about "tree hugging" should read this article about a particular aspect of the Great Leap of Blind Faith.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_Campaign



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 18,614
Location: Aux Arcs

14 Nov 2012, 2:06 pm

On IFC they had a short film called " Human Remains " with quotes from Mao and others like him.It's very disturbing.



AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

14 Nov 2012, 3:48 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATOEI_IM1vk[/youtube]


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,636

14 Nov 2012, 5:12 pm

Health Improvement under Mao and Its Implications for Contemporary Aging in China

This paper is described thus...

Quote:
Official growth in Chinese life expectancy between 1950 and 1980 ranks among the most rapid in documented global history. This project aims to document and better understand the dramatic health improvements in Maoist China and the age-related health disparities that they may have generated. The researchers will validate official Chinese health statistics to establish the magnitude of China's mortality decline between 1950 and 1980, identify the proximate determinates correlated with China's mortality decline, and assess how the forces related to life expectancy gains may have produced age disparities in the health of the Chinese population. The project will identify those features of healthcare systems in the Asia-Pacific region that are most effective in raising longevity in current low income countries and in decreasing health disparities.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

14 Nov 2012, 5:32 pm

xenon13 wrote:
Health Improvement under Mao and Its Implications for Contemporary Aging in China

This paper is described thus...
Quote:
Official growth in Chinese life expectancy between 1950 and 1980 ranks among the most rapid in documented global history. This project aims to document and better understand the dramatic health improvements in Maoist China and the age-related health disparities that they may have generated. The researchers will validate official Chinese health statistics to establish the magnitude of China's mortality decline between 1950 and 1980, identify the proximate determinates correlated with China's mortality decline, and assess how the forces related to life expectancy gains may have produced age disparities in the health of the Chinese population. The project will identify those features of healthcare systems in the Asia-Pacific region that are most effective in raising longevity in current low income countries and in decreasing health disparities.


I am sure the Aryan population would have grown quite substantially as well if the Third Reich had won WWII.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 Nov 2012, 5:36 pm

blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I wasn't aware that anyone contended the death rate of China under Mao. Even by hardened Maoists.

The semantics of the nazi holocaust were very different. The nazi holocaust was a premeditated attempt to systematically exterminate ethnic groups. That is why holocaust denial is associated with glorifying and substantiating racism and anti semitism.

There was no race or ethnicity motive behind Mao's crimes.


Nearly every communist I've met has called it western propaganda.

And denial of atrocities should not be illegal. That is ridiculous. But that's Europe for you.

And I always hear that excuse, "Well, at least Mao wasn't racist!" Like that somehow makes it better. Racism is the ultimate crime to liberals.


Racism, religious sectarianism and other forms of prejudice borne of congenital factors, become the ultimate crime when used as the motive for systematic murder, yes.

Now, I'm no fan of Mao, and never have been, but repeated citations of numbers are little more than a sanctimonius and emotive strawman to steer to argument one way.

Saying that mass murder is worse than genocide is like saying someone who has raped a thousand people is worse than a person who has killed one person.



Last edited by thomas81 on 14 Nov 2012, 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

14 Nov 2012, 5:41 pm

Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.

With that being said, Stalin, Mao, or Lenin was no better than Hitler. The only difference is that Hitler attacked Western-Europe and his allies in Japan attacked Pearl Harbour (after the US cut the oil supplies).



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 Nov 2012, 5:42 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.


Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.



blackelk
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 308
Location: New York

14 Nov 2012, 5:42 pm

thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I wasn't aware that anyone contended the death rate of China under Mao. Even by hardened Maoists.

The semantics of the nazi holocaust were very different. The nazi holocaust was a premeditated attempt to systematically exterminate ethnic groups. That is why holocaust denial is associated with glorifying and substantiating racism and anti semitism.

There was no race or ethnicity motive behind Mao's crimes.


Nearly every communist I've met has called it western propaganda.

And denial of atrocities should not be illegal. That is ridiculous. But that's Europe for you.

And I always hear that excuse, "Well, at least Mao wasn't racist!" Like that somehow makes it better. Racism is the ultimate crime to liberals.


Racism, religious sectarianism and other forms of prejudice borne of congenital factors, become the ultimate crime when used as the motive for systematic murder, yes.

Saying that mass murder is worse than genocide is like saying someone who has raped a thousand people is worse than a person who has killed one person.


No, the people are just as dead, and just as unjustly. Whether a person is killed because Hitler didn't like their race, or killed by Mao as clogs in the machine on way to some higher cause, , or by Stalin for speaking out against the communist party, they are just as dead. And none are worse than the other.

Again, wrong, because we are comparing murder to murder here, and similar numbers.


_________________
"Meaninglessness inhibits fullness of life and is therefore equivalent to illness. Meaning makes a great many things endurable ? perhaps everything.?


blackelk
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 308
Location: New York

14 Nov 2012, 5:43 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.


Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.


Look up a place called Ukraine.


_________________
"Meaninglessness inhibits fullness of life and is therefore equivalent to illness. Meaning makes a great many things endurable ? perhaps everything.?


Kurgan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Apr 2012
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,132
Location: Scandinavia

14 Nov 2012, 5:46 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.


Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.


A good place to start would be the genocide of cossacks, which was one of the first things Lenin ever did as a dictator. If that's not enough, then Holodomor or the Great Leap Forward are grade A examples.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 Nov 2012, 5:46 pm

blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.


Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.


Look up a place called Ukraine.


You're referring to the holodomor i take it. Unlike Hitler's holocaust, the death of 7 million Ukrainians was not a premeditated intention on the part of Stalin. It happened because Ukrainian seperatists wanted to leave the Soviet Union. Not that I agree with Stalin or how he handled it, it is not analogous to what happened to European Jews under nazi occupied Europe.

Moreover last time i checked, Ukrainian was not an ethnicity.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

14 Nov 2012, 5:47 pm

Kurgan wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.


Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.


A good place to start would be the genocide of cossacks, which was one of the first things Lenin ever did as a dictator. If that's not enough, then Holodomor or the Great Leap Forward are grade A examples.


Cossacks, one of Russia's better known ethnicities. Right. :roll:

For the nth time no races were targeted under Mao's china.

I think you still havent understood what the word 'genocide' means.



blackelk
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 308
Location: New York

14 Nov 2012, 6:02 pm

thomas81 wrote:
blackelk wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Either all genocide denial is acceptable or no genocide denial is acceptable. Freedom of speech is for everyone—and even though only anti-semitic as*holes deny the Holocaust (just like only die hard commies deny various communist genocide), they still have the right to voice their opinion.


Which genocides were communists involved in?

Hint: Mass murder =/= genocide.


Look up a place called Ukraine.


You're referring to the holodomor i take it. Unlike Hitler's holocaust, the death of 7 million Ukrainians was not a premeditated intention on the part of Stalin. It happened because Ukrainian seperatists wanted to leave the Soviet Union. Not that I agree with Stalin or how he handled it, it is not analogous to what happened to European Jews under nazi occupied Europe.

Moreover last time i checked, Ukrainian was not an ethnicity.


I told you there would be constant apologists on here . Yes, it was premeditated. Russians saw Ukrainians as inferior people, and as a distinct ethnic group. It was punishment for resisting them.

Quote:
It was engineered by Stalin and his hangmen to teach Ukraine’s independent farmers “a lesson they would not forget” for resisting collectivization, which meant giving up their land and livestock to the state. (Ukraine was then under Soviet domination).


_________________
"Meaninglessness inhibits fullness of life and is therefore equivalent to illness. Meaning makes a great many things endurable ? perhaps everything.?