Do we have the moral right to create artificial intelligence

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puddingmouse
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18 Nov 2012, 9:35 am

^I just read your earlier post properly and you said that humans will be able to consign some of their thinking to machines. I merely propose that they would do a better job of that kind of 'thinking' in the same way that a calculator is better than a human at arithmetic.

I completely realise that this is not desire/aspiration/blah and isn't really ruling humanity.

Please stop being condescending.



Last edited by puddingmouse on 18 Nov 2012, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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18 Nov 2012, 9:44 am

b9 wrote:
"desire" can not be programmed in any way.
"lust"
"aspiration"
"ideation"
"unrequested exploration"

means nothing to the consciously dead "genius" who is the self building AI module,

i suspect your attention span can not extend to the length of some of my observations, but that is good because it minimizes the possibility of getting gnarled up in a communicative net with you.

well that is how i see it anyway.


Are we being vile and hostile today?



echinopsis
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18 Nov 2012, 9:47 am

as long as we are talking about stuff like learning algorithms and simple simulations of life (which are already pretty advanced areas) i cant see any ethical dilemma there since those bots are but very sophisticated machines that have some autonomy in information processing. if we should however succeed in establishing a sense of self in an ai (i doubt anyone of us irregardless of age is going to see that happen since our comprehension of the human mind is still fairly limited) we would have to rethink our definition of a person. if youd manage to model and implement human qualities such as self awareness, fear, pain perception, personal wishes, capability to suffer and whatnot (which i personally would already hesistate creating in the first place) the resulting consciousness of such would become indistinguishable from a human one, the only difference being that it is based on tech and not a biological (molecular/cellular) lifeform, and from that point on it would deserve to be granted the same legal rights as a human citizen. as of now this might still seem like crazy sci-fi as seen in the quantic dream trailer for example, but i think that from a computational neuroscience its well theoretically possible.



ruveyn
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18 Nov 2012, 9:49 am

echinopsis wrote:
as long as we are talking about stuff like learning algorithms and simple simulations of life (which are already pretty advanced areas) i cant see any ethical dilemma there since those bots are but very sophisticated machines that have some autonomy in information processing. if we should however succeed in establishing a sense of self in an ai (i doubt anyone of us irregardless of age is going to see that happen since our comprehension of the human mind is still fairly limited) we would have to rethink our definition of a person. if youd manage to model and implement human qualities such as self awareness, fear, pain perception, personal wishes, capability to suffer and whatnot (which i personally would already hesistate creating in the first place) the resulting consciousness of such would become indistinguishable from a human one, the only difference being that it is based on tech and not a biological (molecular/cellular) lifeform, and from that point on it would deserve to be granted the same legal rights as a human citizen. as of now this might still seem like crazy sci-fi as seen in the quantic dream trailer for example, but i think that from a computational neuroscience its well theoretically possible.


If by some outside chance humans create a genuine artificial person they will have to give it the same status as a natural person. I agree with you perspective.

ruveyn



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18 Nov 2012, 10:00 am

^^^^agreed, I was always a Cylon sympathizer.



ruveyn
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18 Nov 2012, 10:02 am

Misslizard wrote:
^^^^agreed, I was always a Cylon sympathizer.


You and I are also descendants of the organic Cylon Human half breed Hera. Her mitochondrial DNA is all that survived from the Early Days.

ruveyn



18 Nov 2012, 10:15 am

Kurgan wrote:
We have nothing to lose by creating artificial intelligence, but everything to gain. A computer will never be sentient, so we should have no fear that machines will rule the world.



Evidence, please? The human brain is itself a biological computer.



b9
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18 Nov 2012, 10:19 am

puddingmouse wrote:
Please stop being condescending.

ok i am sorry.
i did not mean to imply that you did not have the intellectual capacity to understand things like i do, i implied that you would not very likely be interested in the same aspects of reality that i am.
so that is my final comment in this thread and i will cap it off with "sorry".



18 Nov 2012, 10:25 am

b9 wrote:
it is not possible to create artificial intelligence in it's entirity.
artificial intelligence creates itself from seeded iterations that are programmed by humans.

artificial intelligence itself compiles it's own executable code that it determines is the most optimal to run for analysis and response of/to a new situation, and saves it as a referenceable executable routine for use when faced with future considerations of a similar nature (determined by self compiled situational attribute weightings etc etc).

one can only plant the seed for artificial intelligence to grow from. it is a majestically gifted thinker that can code the seed that could give rise to universal intelligence (if the computational resources were available), but there is one thing that is a crucial element that is missing from the scaffolding of the formation of artificial intelligence, and that is "desire".


Desire is an emotive force; and emotions are neurological processes that take place in the limbic region of the brain. Even if you seed AI, that still means a human imparting intelligence onto a machine so there you have it. Once the process is started, it will learn how to sustain itself.



Misslizard
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18 Nov 2012, 10:26 am

ruveyn wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
^^^^agreed, I was always a Cylon sympathizer.


You and I are also descendants of the organic Cylon Human half breed Hera. Her mitochondrial DNA is all that survived from the Early Days.

ruveyn


It has all happened before and it will all happen agsin :wink:



puddingmouse
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18 Nov 2012, 10:36 am

AspieRogue wrote:

Desire is an emotive force; and emotions are neurological processes that take place in the limbic region of the brain. Even if you seed AI, that still means a human imparting intelligence onto a machine so there you have it. Once the process is started, it will learn how to sustain itself.


We have emotions as a result of the drive to survive. I think in order for an AI to develop emotions, it would have to be subjected to the same evolutionary pressures on its survival as an organic being. Any attempt to programme emotional response would be very basic and rigid and we would have to let the AI refine itself, which would take time. Humans would be able to stop the AI before it developed this capability, and I think they inevitably would try to - especially if the AI was programmed with the intention you give of dominating humanity.



18 Nov 2012, 12:47 pm

b9 wrote:
it is not possible to create artificial intelligence in it's entirity.
artificial intelligence creates itself from seeded iterations that are programmed by humans.

artificial intelligence itself compiles it's own executable code that it determines is the most optimal to run for analysis and response of/to a new situation, and saves it as a referenceable executable routine for use when faced with future considerations of a similar nature (determined by self compiled situational attribute weightings etc etc).

one can only plant the seed for artificial intelligence to grow from. it is a majestically gifted thinker that can code the seed that could give rise to universal intelligence (if the computational resources were available), but there is one thing that is a crucial element that is missing from the scaffolding of the formation of artificial intelligence, and that is "desire".

with no desire, nothing will ever be achieved because without intervention from a human who possesses desire, the foundation program will stagnate after the completion of it's list of assigned tasks.

it can not possess "curiosity" in a true sense, unless that was specifically programmed into the process by a person (eg: "look for things that you do not understand and do not stop modifying your inspection programs until one yields an answer that satisfies a checksum derived from a preset table of general criteria.").

but the things that the computer may "look at", and spend much power assembling into
a translation of the reality behind, may be be completely unimportant aspects of reality in the mind of any human.

something that has no "desire", also has no "aspiration", and "no aspiration" is equal to "no intention", and "no intention" is equal to "idle"

humans have always crafted better and better tools to reduce their physical and time consuming effort, and it stands to reason that they will create tools that reduce their burden of the necessity of intelligent thinking (problem solving specifically) by consigning it to unattended electronic consideration. i wonder whether humans may start to become more creative when the burden of intrinsic logical consideration of their views about mundane aspects of life is reduced.




Desire is an active emotion. Emotions are things that we are born with and they are deterministic processes in the brain. That is, an emotional state is output function that depends entirely on its inputs. There are so many processes going on in our brains at any given time that we are not aware of-what psychologists call the "subconscious mind". Consciousness is essentially self-awareness. To make a machine with a humanoid mind you have implement many processes besides just sentience. Emotions are responses to both to external stimuli and thoughts in our conscious minds, but to chemical activity in midbrain. That is why for example, the desire for sex is minimal to absent in children's brains but gets activated in adolescence due to the influence of steroid hormones like testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone which cross the blood brain barrier and into the cellular nuclei....binding to transcription factors and rendering them active.

What you CAN say is that today's computers are not capable of sentience because sentience is more than just a process, it is a thing in itself that requires a certain level of non-determinism whose only known source is quantum mechanics.



Kurgan
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18 Nov 2012, 2:51 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
We have nothing to lose by creating artificial intelligence, but everything to gain. A computer will never be sentient, so we should have no fear that machines will rule the world.



Evidence, please? The human brain is itself a biological computer.


I cannot prove a negative. If something sounds very farfetched, it should be ruled out until proven otherwise. CPUs today are simply more advanced versions of CPUs 20 years ago (with more cores, 64 bit instruction sets and more transistors). Most likely, the development will continue in THIS path.

Regardless of what the human brain does, it's not made of transistors, circuit boards, shift registers, and flip-flops.



Satanist
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18 Nov 2012, 2:57 pm

We have every right to.


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18 Nov 2012, 3:11 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:

Desire is an emotive force; and emotions are neurological processes that take place in the limbic region of the brain. Even if you seed AI, that still means a human imparting intelligence onto a machine so there you have it. Once the process is started, it will learn how to sustain itself.


We have emotions as a result of the drive to survive. I think in order for an AI to develop emotions, it would have to be subjected to the same evolutionary pressures on its survival as an organic being. Any attempt to program emotional response would be very basic and rigid and we would have to let the AI refine itself, which would take time.


This 'drive to survive' is something that CAN be comprised(as with the phenomenon of suicide). You are explaining why emotions evolved, but now why they cannot be duplicated. Thoughts and emotions are processes. Consciousness is a process too; but it is not entirely deterministic and will radically new technology that does not exist.



Quote:
Humans would be able to stop the AI before it developed this capability, and I think they inevitably would try to - especially if the AI was programmed with the intention you give of dominating humanity.


Well, there are always going to be rogue humans who will create things in secret, or even covertly introducing bypasses to allow these machines to supersede human desires. Particularly a rogue scientist who does this in secret. If something can be done, it will be done eventually.



18 Nov 2012, 3:25 pm

Another thing, puddingmouse:

Organic beings require energy and materials in order to survive and resist entropy. Computing machines also require energy in the form of electricity. A sentient robot will need energy to produce electric current for its circuit as well as replacement parts when its internal components. But even computer chips eventually succumb to entropy and stop working so machines too will be mortal and need to reproduce themselves.